Mixing Unbalanced 1st Stage W/ Balanced 2nd

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jasonong99

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Hi guys, currently own a conshelf XIV 1st and 2nd stage. I am thinking of changing the second stage to a AL Titan. Any comments on whether it's a no no and can anybody enlighten me on how using a 1st stage unbalanced could affect the flow rate of a balanced 2nd stage?
 
Should be no problem.

You just can't mix a down stream 1st with and up stream 2nd, i.e.- a poseiden 1st with an Apeks 2nd.

Someone else will have to chime in on the unbalanced 1st with the balanced 2nd. I suspect again no worries because the 1st is going to provide the largest change in that config.
 
Should be no problem.

You just can't mix a down stream 1st with and up stream 2nd, i.e.- a poseiden 1st with an Apeks 2nd.

Someone else will have to chime in on the unbalanced 1st with the balanced 2nd. I suspect again no worries because the 1st is going to provide the largest change in that config.

"down stream 1st' Never heard that term. Balanced/unbalanced/piston/diaphragm.
Please explain.
 
Upstream/Downstream refers to the location of the stopper in relationship to the seat. If the stopper is down stream and the valve fails air will continue to flow (aka fail safe). With an upstream stopper the flow of air will stop. This type of terminology is not just specific to scuba but to valve design.

Poseidon makes first stage regs with upstream valves. Some of their second stages are upstream as well.

Is possible to mix and match valve types. For instance, have an upstream first with a downstream second, Poseidon Cyklon. As well as upstream first and seconds, Poseidon Jetstream.

With upstream seconds there needs to an OPV valve incase of a problem with the first delivering too high of pressure. Lest things go boom - like the hose. The OPV can be incorporated with either stage.

Edit to add:
You just can't mix a down stream 1st with and up stream 2nd

You can mix them but with an upstream valve that is down stream of a pressure reducing reg/valve you want to make sure there is an OPV for the reasons above - boom boom.
 
Last edited:
"down stream 1st' Never heard that term. Balanced/unbalanced/piston/diaphragm.
Please explain.

Page 8 of Vance Harlow's SCUBA Regulator Maintenance and Repair

'Upstream and Downstream

The valve seats used on SCUBA regulators come in two flavors; upstream and downstream, depending on where the movable side of the valve seat is in relation to the flow.

If it's on the HP side, then it's an upstream valve, because the valve action takes place upstream of the seat. If it's on the LP side, then it's a downstream valve.'
 
Jasonong,
Just to clarify. The Titan second stage is a simple downstream second and IS NOT balanced. The Titan LX second stage IS pneumatically balanced.
 
Should be no problem.

You just can't mix a down stream 1st with and up stream 2nd, i.e.- a poseiden 1st with an Apeks 2nd.

Someone else will have to chime in on the unbalanced 1st with the balanced 2nd. I suspect again no worries because the 1st is going to provide the largest change in that config.
Not quite, but its the right idea.

Some poseiden second stages use what amounts to an expandable collar to control gas flow, so they are not "upstream" second stages per se, but they are not "downstream" second stages in the sense that they will not function as a pressure relief valve in the event of a high pressure seat leak in the first stage.

Diaphragm first stages, regardless of brand are "upstream" designs as the seat and seat carrier are located upstream of the orifice and the tank pressure acts to hold the seat on the orifice. Piston first stages are "downstream" designs as the seat is located downstream of the orifice and tank pressure acts to push the seat off the orifice.

When balanced it makes no real difference as whether the tank pressure acts to open or close the valve does not matter. No one makes an unbalanced diaphragm first stage but in the past, those regs got easier to breathe as tank pressure dropped as the IP increased with lower tank pressure. With unbalanced first stages, the IP drecreases as tank pressure falls and with an unbalanced second stage, inhalation effort increases.

Unbalanced second stages use a spring tooffset the downstream force from the first stage. If the first stage seat leaks, the pressure increases and this excess pressure will force the second stage open and the resulting leak will serve as an overpressure relief. Balanced second stages use a combination of spring and air pressure in a balance chamber to offset the downstream froce from the first stage. In this case, if the seat leaks, the pressure onboth sides of the second stage valve poppet increases. This could be bad news, except the valve is designed with a downstream bias so that it will still function as a pressure relief to vent the excess pressure before a hose ruptures.

What it all means is that the only time it matters is if you attach a poseiden second stage (a non-downstream design) to any first stage without either a poseiden hose with a built in OPV or an add on OPV screwed into one of the LP ports on the first stage. The second issue with poseiden first and second stages is that some of them operate at a higher IP in the 175-190 psi range, while everyone else operates around 120-145 psi.
 
Hi guys, currently own a conshelf XIV 1st and 2nd stage. I am thinking of changing the second stage to a AL Titan. Any comments on whether it's a no no and can anybody enlighten me on how using a 1st stage unbalanced could affect the flow rate of a balanced 2nd stage?

Perfectly fine to do. You do realize that a Conshelf first stage and a Titan first stage are almost exactly the same internally. The only difference in them is the shape of the main body and the Titan has a replacable HP orfice. As long as a first stage is capable of supplying enough gas flow and can keep the IP in a reasonable range (something any first stage from the last 20 years can do) you can use almost any first stage with any second stage. Poseidon being the one exception I know of. Balancing has nothing to do with flow rates of the stages, it simply keeps the cracking pressure and work of breathing constant as tank pressure varies. Balancing either stage accomplishes that. Due to the mechanical design of the Titian second, I would expect it to breath a little better than the Conshelf but in any case, it's certainly an acceptable swap.
 
The Conshelf XIV is a ballanced upstream design.
 
There is very little differences between the Conshelf XIV and the Titan first stages. The major difference is that the Titan has a removable/replaceable volcano orifice. Here are the part numbers, see some similarity?

Conshelf XIV
10 ---- 104613 Spring
11 ---- 105324 Spring Block
12 ---- 828005 Back-up Ring
13 ---- 820080 O-ring
14 ---- 101504 Spring
15 ---- 105940 Seat

Titan
9 ---- 101509 Spring Kit (includes 9a & 9b)
10 ---- 105324 Spring Block
11 ---- 828005 Backup Ring
12 ---- 820080 O-ring
13 ---- 105940 HP Seat
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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