More Long Hose Ignorance

[lamont]

BSAC appears to have infected some of the Canadians. From a forwarded e-mail from a dive shop instructor laying out their policy against using a long hose in a group with recreational divers (plus the accompanying attachment):

Why is it not safe to combine technical divers and recreational divers.

Recently I have been asked "Why do I not allow Technical Equipment on our club dives". Again today it came up due to former members who have ventured to the technical side, inviting members out for a dive. In this circumbstance it worried the member, because of this concern I am sharing the answer with everyone.

Firstly before venturing into the answer I must state that members are always welcome to dive outside the club when and with whom they wish. However, be aware that our club bears no liability if you are diving outside of our sanctioned club dives. In addition none of our Dive Masters can support any dive that breaks the safety protocol of 4D or ACUC. Any member or dive master that is present is on their own liability.

On club dives we have rules that are determined not only by our club but also by ACUC, the Recreational Scuba Training Council (which represents all major training agencies) and our club's insurer.

These decsions and opinions are based on the expeirience drawn from the real life experiences of dive professionals.

Now let us get to today's the answer.

Technical gear can involve different tanks, valves ,bouyancy systems, regs , breathing systems and much more. For clearification please ask.

There reason that we at 4D do not allow technical gear is that that in an emergency situation there is a very real concern for safety, injury and loss of life. When divers have such radically different equipment and have limited to no training regarding their buddy's technical systems.This is a risk to both the recreational diver as well as the technical one. As the practiced skills for emergencies are very different.

This is jointly agreed upon by diving professions from recreational, technical and commercial sectors.

Our club uses the measurement that we are fun safe recreational divers and that we need to remember that we are diving with family and friends.

Todays question referred to a diver using a backplate system for bouyancy as well as a long hose enviroment. To demonstrate my answer I will use only one example that being the long hose vs the recreational hose Mixing these two systems poses a very real concern for safety, injury and loss of life. Please read the attached file for details as to why. In summery, there is no place for the long hose in our recreational enviroment.

Yours in fun safe diving, ...

 

[Cave Diver]

There was a related discussion a while back on a similar issue.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...an-rigging-primary-take-out-gas-response.html




All I can say about the newest letter is that ignorance continues to flourish.

Cons of using a Long hose on your scuba regulators Generally divers wrap the hose around the neck.
o This poses a strangling risk in a rescue situation.
o There is increased danger of choking in an entanglement situation.
o In an out of air situation the response time is lengthened due to unravelling of the hose from around the neck.
o The act of unravelling increases the risk of entanglements with your gear. In the long hose environment divers usually attach their octopus to a necklace which too goes around their neck. All of the comments for the above point still apply. In an out of air situation the primary is given to the recipient.

 

[Bossman]

I find it particularly amusing that he offers no support for standard length hoses, other than "that's the way most manufacturers ship them, so there must be a reason".

I also am amused by the "what happens if the primary fails, the octo is too short to buddy breathe." If the primary was just working before it was passed, why would it be at higher risk to fail now? More risk that the Octo failing if that's what you were passing? I would bet more divers have been injured because of the inability to locate and pass an octo than there have been strangulations with the wrapped long hose. That's speculation, but probably true.

I don't know why a "different gear configuration" poses a risk between tech and recreational divers. I've seen many different gear configurations on recreational divers diving with other recreational divers. Almost all BP/W systems are very similar, something that can't be said for BC systems. Vents/Dumps, Air2s, location of integrated weights, how they dump, location of D rings, etc are very different between BC mfgs.

His arguments hold no merit.

 

[Van Isle]

*sigh*

For the edification of those who have yet to see or try a long hose system, please understand the following - albeit antithetical to the 4D Club - truths that I have found in my limited 100 or so long hose dives:

1. A long hose and bungied backup REDUCES entanglement hazards. It is much more streamlined than a 40" octo swinging in the current. This is why it is the undisputed rig (save maybe rebreathers, for those so inclined) for entering environs where real and high risk of entanglements occur such as caves, wrecks, etc.

2. A long hose DOES NOT pose a chocking hazard. It wraps the back of the neck. Like a back pack. It does not circle the throat, like a poorly fitted "sternum" strap on many BCDs.

3. A long hose is VERY QUICK to deploy. There is no searching in some theoretical "Golden Triangle" for some 2nd stage which may be yellow, or black; which may be clipped, snapped, glued, tied, bungied or tucked somewhere - anywhere - on a person. In addition it is not necessary or part of common practice to "unwrap" the 7 feet of hose to deploy it. The reg is handed off, the OOA diver is breathing, THEN the full 7' is deployed after the emergency has been fixed.

4. A long hose set up is probably the closest thing to a "standard rig" the dive community has seen in a long time when put next to the various jumble of BCDs, Air2s, no octos, etc that can be viewed on any given day at a dive site.

5. A long hose setup poses NO ADDITIONAL RISK to recreational/"tec-rec"/pre-tec/mixed-groups. Like any piece of simple, previously unknown gear it takes a 30sec brief during the buddy check to figure it out.

6. Neither a long hose, back plate and wing, nor doubles imply technical diving, elevated skill, or knowledge of any kind. It's just a gear choice.

 

[fdog]

After reading the .pdf, it appears to me that Bill Doran has little or no experience with a long hose... he manages to state exactly the opposite of how a long hose behaves.



All the best, James

 

[vjanelle]

I've spent more time in an actual OOA situation looking for an octo and trying to get it deployed than it would've taken to deploy a long hose.

When doing my DM pool sessions, trying to use a 'standard' hose + octopus was awkward to position and required much thought.

About the only thing I could agree with on there was that it would be difficult to buddy breathe a short hose, but that's why you were donating the working regulator from your mouth to begin with... And you are using a downstream regulator that'll fail open, aren't you?

 

[ianr33]

Why should I believe someone that can't even use a Spell Checker ?

 

[Dave1981]

No, you're missing the point..

Because you remove the reg from your mouth it gets wet. This causes it to free flow. Therefor it's better to donate an unverified reg because that ones already wet and will be used to it by then, and so is much more likely to work.

There's also situations whe having a long hose will be detrimental to an escpae from a particular situation. The author never mentioned what these situations were so I'll clarify that polar bears are attracted to long hoses, and if you're sharing air on a long hose at up to 40' depth there is an 85% chance of being attacked by one.

 

[Thalassamania]

Let's start with the easily demonstrable fact that Bill Doran has not even the vaguest idea of what he is talking about. Clearly he has never used a long hose (it does not go around the neck, there is no danger of strangulation).

No, you're missing the point..

Because you remove the reg from your mouth it gets wet. This causes it to free flow. Therefor it's better to donate an unverified reg because that ones already wet and will be used to it by then, and so is much more likely to work.

I know of no evidence that this dry/wet/dry thing stimulates free flow (and I've spent plenty of time under arctic ice). Maybe its a fresh water thing?

There's also situations whe having a long hose will be detrimental to an escpae from a particular situation. The author never mentioned what these situations were so I'll clarify that polar bears are attracted to long hoses, and if you're sharing air on a long hose at up to 40' depth there is an 85% chance of being attacked by one.

That's good to know, especially since I have well verified reports of Polar Bear diving deeper that sixty feet.

 

[irishsquid]

Wow! First, I'm a "Rec Diver" who someday will be able to afford moving into the technical/cave diving community. With that said, I use a BP/W and long hose configuration, because I have had the privilege to dive with plenty of cave/tech divers and the benefits of the gear configuration is obvious to all but the blind, even in "open water". A good majority of the jacket /octo setups I've witnessed are some of the most diverse systems that are constantly changing/different setups that you could shake a stick at. On just one dive at the local quarry, I've seen:
Octo in BCD pocket, in a scumball, at the waist on a snorkle keeper, clipped to the harness in the "triangle", and one just dragging loose on the bottom (Nothing like mud for your first breath when out of air, if it works). Add to that; all the retractors, dozens of d-rings, straps, zippers, clips, pockets, and what all, spying a simple BP/W is a breath of fresh air. Simple and to the point with no extra stuff.
I'm not knocking anyone who uses all of that stuff, more power to them if it works for them. However, that pdf of BS is unbelievable. IMHO