My descent into and out of madness: GUE Fundamentals, or Instruction vs Evaluation

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tmassey

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Location
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(Please see my request regarding debate and arguing at the end of this post. TL;DR: Please just don't. Start a new thread if you have something to argue or debate. T.J.M.)

I'm signed up for a GUE Fundamentals class which starts in just a couple of weeks. It's been a long journey: a decade of diving and an entire deck of recreational and technical certifications. I've always appreciated reading other "Fundies Reports" and I always assumed I'd write one of my own. But starting this has led to a tremendous amount of unexpected angst and painful self-reflection.

I'll try to distill this as best I can. It's a recent thread that is causing me to post this here. (GUE training and deep diving) Some of the points outlined there, particularly by @lv2dive, are at the heart of why this has taken me so long and been so painful.

A very brief outline of my history: Began diving seriously again in 2008, and have a little less than 400 dives since then. During that time I've gone from OW to AOW, Rescue, Master, TDI Advanced Wreck, AN/DP, Cavern, Intro Cave and just finished Full Cave back in December.

I spent much of this time exhausting the PADI recreational class path. Some classes were valuable (Rescue was the best of the lot), but most were underwhelming. Fast forward to my recent perspective, and I've come to realize why: in those classes, I was largely being evaluated, not instructed. If I was already above the minimum requirements, there was no requirement to teach me, and so I wasn't taught anything.

The perfect example of that was my Peak Performance Buoyancy certification. There was no pre-dive material, no pre-dive instruction, and no post-dive review. We did a dive, I was told I passed, and if I paid my money I'd get the card. So basically I paid $120 or whatever to have a dive buddy on that dive. Actually no, I paid $120 for someone to pass judgement on me. I didn't want judgement: I wanted improvement! But because I was above the minimum standard, I was given no instruction.

This even continued with my technical training as well. The net result was that in classes where I was far from the minimum standards (such as in classes that included new techniques or skills), I received noticeable instruction. In classes where this was not the case, I did not. I received a positive judgement, but not positive instruction. And this continued to be frustrating.

I have come to realize that my expectations were misplaced. While *I* was eager for continual suggestions for improvement, most students would *not* be. Instructors are merely providing what most people want -- and that's not exactly an unreasonable business model, even if it doesn't fit what *I* wanted. Also, why did I think it was reasonable for someone to work to improve every aspect of my diving, when the purpose of the class is focused on specific items? Of course, these items feed on each other until you end with the evaluate-not-instruct model.

What made my response to this worse was that during this entire time, I was very aware of this militant group called GUE and their intense SCUBA boot camp called 'Fundies'. So all while I was receiving my milquetoast instruction, I had in the back of my mind that this magic class would be all that I wanted.

So why didn't I take it? A few reasons, some good and some bad.

First, the time commitment. It's a week long. I could not get a week off work, and even if I could, I could *not* then take that time away from my family. (This was not me saying that this could not happen. This really could not happen.) PADI may get slammed as being "Put Another Dollar In", but there is real, actual, positive value in making things bite-sized, even if it costs more in the end. Because if a piece is too large, it doesn't matter how good or how cheap it is if you truly cannot swallow it.

Plus it's expensive. Well into four figures. Again, too much to bite off at once. Plus, it's far away (which factors into that expensive part, too). Plus it needs all new gear. (In 2019, this isn't quite as true, and the "right" gear is much more mainstream and available anyway. In the aughts, not *nearly* so much.)

But here's the *other* really, really big reason: because I knew I couldn't pass it. And I couldn't bring myself to take a class that I knew I could *not* pass, when I already knew the items that would prevent me from passing. Why would I spend multiple thousands of dollars and selfishly take a week away from my family to be told what I already knew? I can do that for free!

Yes, I knew even then that the point was that you'd be told *how* to *improve* on the things that you couldn't do, and it would still move you much farther ahead, even without a "pass". But that was just a bridge too far.

Don't think that I can't see the contradiction in this. I slam my early training as too focused on evaluation and minimum standards, yet I won't take the other class because I won't pass it. But can't there be an in-between? Can't there be bite-sized training that *isn't* simply focused on evaluation to a minimum standard, but truly focused on instruction and *then* evaluation?

And don't tell me Fundamentals Part 1. An interesting experiment: see how many instructors have filed an upcoming Fundamentals class for 2019. About 200. Now see how many Fundamentals Part 1 are offered. About 20. WORLDWIDE. The class may exist, but it's not one that gets taught. (Maybe it can't happen: maybe the economics just *require* the really big bite.)

Others might say, "That's what mentoring is for." Yeah, if you can find suitable mentors. That's not always easy. And as a newbie, you don't know the difference between a good mentor and a bad mentor. I've got a great story about how my mentor at that time took me on a dive that was *WAY* beyond my skills and training (an open-water diver going to 150' with planned O2-accelerated deco) and bad things happened. But he was a "great" diver -- if you don't know how any of that stuff is *supposed* to be done, anyway. In Michigan, divers like that outnumber responsible tech divers 10 to 1. Not good odds of finding a good mentor... (And there's zero GUE presence in Michigan.)

So, this is where things stood: a magical class that was beyond my logistical, financial and SCUBA capabilities to take, or a series of classes that I certainly *could* take, but left me wanting. And things stood that way for a decade, as I slowly acquired more and more cards.

But I'm now taking the class. What changed? A few things. One, my work situation has changed significantly, enough to make the class possible. Two, I've basically run out of other classes. If I want to get better (and I still do), I'll have to try something different. Three, I've run out of major obstacles to "passing" the GUE class. Before, I had a list of like 20 things that needed to actually change, not just improve. Now, I've run out. That doesn't mean that I think I can pass. I really don't (*certainly* not a tech pass): there's lots of skills I need to improve. But there isn't a specific skill that I can say, "That will stop me from any chance of passing because it's completely missing." So *now* I'll take the class: so that now they can show me what I'm still missing.

Yes, writing that out has clearly illustrated to me why that thinking is *so*... fundamentally wrong. 'Now that I think that there's not that much for me to learn, now I'm ready to take the class.' Really? That's why you take the class?

But in a world of evaluation, it *is* why. If the purpose is judgement rather than instruction, you take it when you will have a positive judgement.

I'm still worried about this aspect. Will my GUE class still be largely evaluation rather than instruction? Don't know. I've been assured it won't. I hope they're right.

The other thing I'm worried about: will my intense need to level -- to "pass" -- interfere with my learning? I hope not. I keep trying to tell myself that taking this class is *not* about passing -- it's *only* about getting better. In some ways, I believe this. I do *not* need this class. I will get my TDI Normoxic Trimix card whenever I feel like writing the check and spending the time -- I have no real doubt of that. And that's truly the last card I think I will need for multiple years at least. So a Tech Pass gives me nothing: I don't plan on taking Cave 1 or Tech 1, so who cares? But... I know me. No matter how much I say it doesn't matter (and it *really* doesn't), it doesn't mean I don't *care*.

So this is where I stand today. I'm trying to overcome the crippling mental and emotional limitations that I've put on myself that have caused me to continue to favor the education I *knew* was not providing me the value I was looking for, because I was too afraid and proud to invest the time, money, effort and humility into taking the class that I hoped would. Will the class provide me what I'm looking for? Well, it's probably not going to address the emotional damage -- that's likely on me alone. :) I'll be happy if it it will at least provide the specific and deep SCUBA instruction I'm looking for!

(Part two next: 10,000 character limit?!? :) )
 
What is the point of all this?

I hope others will be able to take something away from this. For new divers, don't wait to take the class just because you "know" you can't pass it. So what? Even if you're right, it will provide value. How can I say that when I haven't even taken the class yet? Because there were a number of times in my development where I was so paralyzed by my own fear of doing something wrong that I didn't do anything. (Two specific examples: deploying an SMB and using doubles.) These were items that are covered in Fundies: had I taken the class, I would not have been paralyzed, literally for *years*, and I would have made more, better and faster progress.

For experienced divers who are yet disappointed with their training, there's lots to think about. Are you getting instruction, or are you getting evaluation? Are your expectations (especially your deeply unconscious ones!) aligned with what the instructor plans on delivering? Are your (again, likely deeply unconscious) reactions to your training getting in the way of making progress? I would have immediately dismissed *both* of those issues out of hand -- until I *really* sat down and thought about these things hard, and for a long time. You might need to do the same for yourself. Maybe this will help you to see the need -- and the value in doing so. And all of that is before any consideration of GUE Fundamentals as a class.

And while we're at it: you instructors, have you fallen into the evaluation trap -- just making sure your students hit the minimums and moving on as fast as you can? Are *you* making sure that you're putting instruction first? Even if you have a well-prepared and capable student, are you going out of your way to make sure that they are learning things? I wouldn't suggest that you just assume that they want further instruction beyond the minimums, but maybe at least offer? "Hey, you are well above the minimum standard in XYZ. Would you like some further suggestions for improvement, even though they're not necessary to meet the standards? Or would you prefer to move on to focus on another area?"

Or am I being unreasonable that something like that should be possible during a class?

In any case, that's what I'm hoping others will think about. I'll write more as I move forward with my class.

One note: I know this is ScubaBoard. But can we keep the argument to an absolute minimum? Like zero? If I've said something that has health or safety ramifications, please write whatever you need. If you want to share your thoughts or perspective regarding receiving or giving training, that's fine too: I would like to hear them, even if they're different. But please, I'm not interested in an argument or debate on anything I've written here. And I'm *really* not interested in people arguing about *ANYTHING* about other comments. If you think there's a point worthy of argument, that sounds wonderful: Create a new thread. Argue whatever you'd like into the ground. Just please don't do it here. I will ask mods to remove any argument here. If that's not appropriate or violates some TOS or something, then mods simply remove the post in its entirety. But hopefully we can simply not argue? (Yeah, right... :) )
 
The whole 'can you learn everything' in X days is definitely an issue. Fundies 1/2 seems a nice split to give you practice time after some feedback. But yeah, most are not scheduled that way. I'd be interested in why, might be travel costs add up.

I think you could grok the team aspect, if you're amenable, in 4 days of intense diving. Four tough days may actually help teach the teamwork, while 2 and 2 might not stress you enough to learn to instinctively act as a team.

How well prepared to be so you learn what can best be learned there is an issue. Short of just deciding you'll need to come back even if it was the four day version.
 
Great post. The cost of fundies was mentioned several times so I just want to touch upon that and maybe get some clarification.

Tech 1/Tech 2 are very expensive classes. The helium, the instructor fee, the boat fees, rental cars, airbnb, etc. My all-in for Tech 1 was a little over 4k. Tech 2 would probably be closer to 5K because of the added helium.

Fundies costs are typically 800-900 instructor fee + a $95 GUE online registration fee for 4 days of class and then add travel plus gas plus accommodations. My all-in fundies in Florida was 1500 ($1470 actually), but if you were to budget the class it would look like:

1000 (class) + 250 airfare + 250 for 5 night hotel + 100 nitrox bill + 150 car rental + 250 for incidentals.

My class instruction was a little bit less and my buddy and I shared a hotel room plus rental car which saved the difference.

Tech 1/Tech 2 and Cave 1/Cave 2 you are paying premium instructor daily rates. Fundies daily rate is on par with any other technical instructor/course.
 
Thanks for the post(s)!

Since Fundies doesn't lead to a change in certification, and thus liability for GUE, it would be an awesome opportunity to do some very valuable training, learn a lot of (occasionally new) skills and dial in your mindset and approach to diving as a team (useful even if all you have is instabuddies).

Unfortunately, it also acts as a gatekeeper to the further GUE training path, and I believe that is where the whole evaluation vs training part can get very muddled. A possible solution would be to hire a GUE instructor to train you, but if you don't need the gatekeeper card, you can get all the benefits without a lot of the stress. It may be cheaper as well, since there are no agency fees etc etc.

If finding good mentors is challenging, consider finding a suitable instructor and then paying them to be a mentor rather than issuing a cert.

Good luck either way!
 
Even if you have a well-prepared and capable student, are you going out of your way to make sure that they are learning things? I wouldn't suggest that you just assume that they want further instruction beyond the minimums, but maybe at least offer? "Hey, you are well above the minimum standard in XYZ. Would you like some further suggestions for improvement, even though they're not necessary to meet the standards? Or would you prefer to move on to focus on another area?"
I would've loved that. I did all but one of my skills in OW well enough on the first try but had little confidence I could do them every time, under stress. AOW didn't do much by itself for my skills or confidence, but I do feel like I learn something new with each dive. I go back and forth between thinking I'd like to get some more instruction and thinking I should just dive as much as possible.

I guess I didn't understand this about GUE Fundamentals: you can take it right out of OW, but you wouldn't expect to "pass"? Do people take it just to better their diving without any real hope of passing, or repeat it until they do? If you were taking it just to improve, and Fundamentals 1 was available, might it make sense to do that and not follow up with 2? Or arrange a few private lessons with a GUE instructor with the understanding that passing isn't on the table but you'll cover at least some of what would be in the course? Not trying to suggest what you should do, just thinking about my own options.
 
I would've loved that. I did all but one of my skills in OW well enough on the first try but had little confidence I could do them every time, under stress. AOW didn't do much by itself for my skills or confidence, but I do feel like I learn something new with each dive. I go back and forth between thinking I'd like to get some more instruction and thinking I should just dive as much as possible.

I guess I didn't understand this about GUE Fundamentals: you can take it right out of OW, but you wouldn't expect to "pass"? Do people take it just to better their diving without any real hope of passing, or repeat it until they do? If you were taking it just to improve, and Fundamentals 1 was available, might it make sense to do that and not follow up with 2? Or arrange a few private lessons with a GUE instructor with the understanding that passing isn't on the table but you'll cover at least some of what would be in the course? Not trying to suggest what you should do, just thinking about my own options.

Many people take fundies just to improve or get better with their diving. Some are brand new such as yourself, others have lots of "experience" but lets just say are less skilled, and some are very skilled and just take fundies to try GUE (Kensuf and several others on this board are an example of that). Taking Fundamentals 1 is a great first step and I guarantee that you will know if you want to continue with Fundamentals 2 after taking Fundamentals 1. With the breakdown of fundies into two parts there is less of a need for private lessons.
 
@tmassey,

I took fundies at around 380 dives. I've said this many times in different threads that my biggest mistake in training was not taking fundies straight out of open water. Would I have passed? Absolutely not. I would have received a provisional. Hopefully within the time window, I would have earned a recreational pass, and eventually a tech one.

If I were to wager on this, I'd bet that you would draw the same conclusion as me in that you took it much, much earlier. Maybe not immediately after OW, but still quite early.

I would only suggest not being concerned about earning a rec/tec pass, but just focus on becoming a better diver. There will be a transformation in those 4 days. Will it be enough to get a rec/tec pass? I have no idea as I have no idea to your skills level at this point, but my gut tells me that a rec pass is certainly in your reach.

I'd also suggest post fundies to just hire a different GUE instructor to give you an evaluation and challenge you. This will give you a slightly different take. I did this with the other fundies instructor in my area and it was great. He pushed me just to the point of failure, and it helped me dramatically as I had a new things to work on.

Hands down, the best money I've spent. The only thing I think may equal or surpass would be cave and/or rebreather training. But that will take some amazing instruction.

Good luck! I'm sure you'll love it.
 
I'd like to comment on the evaluation Vs training here. During fundamentals classes I am constantly evaluating my students, as this is the only way to help them improve. Good instruction requires evaluation. However I am not evaluating them against a pass/fail boundary, I'm evaluating them against "perfection" (which is obviously impossible). Through that evaluation, I then give feedback and active teaching to improve the students skills.
And finally, there is nothing to say a new OW diver can't pass the class. I have had students with fewer than 10 dives pass the class.

Thanks
John
 
Good for you for signing up for it. Everyone can always improve, hopefully you find it a valuable program. I look forward to reading your post-class report.
 
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