My hose setup, am I close?

[Ste Wart]

No, it's not reasonable to assume that. Many who dive with 2 short hoses either do most of their dives solo or only with other sidemount divers. With 2 independent cylinders there is almost zero chance that a diver will need to get air from another diver if proper gas management is being done.

Proper gas planning does not stop a diver running out of air. It only lowers the possiblity, you cannot reduce that possibility to zero. So the contingency then must be to swap.

Ask all of the short hose divers how many ever practice cylinder swaps and you will get a very low positive response, if anyone does it at all. And a cylinder swap can only be efficient if it is practiced with the same partner. Trying to swap with an unpracticed partner will not go smoothly.

However it is part of the IANTD standard to practice cylinder removal and you are an IANTD instructor. If this is basic drill in the course then divers should be comfortable performing this skill, wouldn't you agree?

I consider myself well drilled on cylinder removal; admittedly for stages as at the moment I dive BM. But I would also expect all divers at the same level to be as well drilled. I don't think that is unreasonable.

I thought the point of SM was to get into places BM can't, and that you practiced changing cylinder positions to achieve this?

 

[LakeCountyDiver]

Proper gas planning does not stop a diver running out of air. It only lowers the possiblity, you cannot reduce that possibility to zero. So the contingency then must be to swap.

Dude you are over thinking this. "Proper gas planning" goes far beyond just the amount of gas. You take in to account for everything task level, flow, depth, hazards, ect ect plus some conservatism. So yes if you have properly managed your gas supply and you had a failure you should not need to share air althou nothing is 100%.

I run a long hose so My contingency is to donate my long hose NOT my whole tank.

I consider myself well drilled on cylinder removal; admittedly for stages as at the moment I dive BM. But I would also expect all divers at the same level to be as well drilled. I don't think that is unreasonable.

I thought the point of SM was to get into places BM can't, and that you practiced changing cylinder positions to achieve this?

You said it your self you dive BM so why fight this so hard. Learn to sidemount and do several dives them come back and present they way you SM when the next opportunity presents itself.

Changing Tank position is one thing and handing it off is another. Having a SM tank hooked up is different then a stage as well and its not just "unclip and go". There are several ways to hang a SM tank (some complex some easy) and not many rigs are alike so you have to be pretty universal and that is one thing SM setups ARE NOT.

Good luck

 

[Ste Wart]

You said it your self you dive BM so why fight this so hard. Learn to sidemount and do several dives them come back and present they way you SM when the next opportunity presents itself.

A good point, but I'd only sit in front of the instructor asking the same questions. And trust me I'm lot more intense in person

I'm intrigued by SM and wish to know more, but financially I don't have the ability to go a do the course, but it doesn't stop me having questions. I'd be equally pernicious about RB's, perhaps more so. But I'd expect the a satisfactory answer to any queries before I could commit to a course. I really wouldn't want to take a course with an instructor who wasn't well versed in the discipline. 'just do the course' is hardly a sales pitch. Prove your knowledge and you'll get my cash.

You say you dive with a long hose. What then would you do if you dived with a buddy who only had a short hose?. I'm curious to know what these divers are doing in the 'event' of an OOA.

 

[LakeCountyDiver]

You say you dive with a long hose. What then would you do if you dived with a buddy who only had a short hose?. I'm curious to know what these divers are doing in the 'event' of an OOA.

Well again we go back to the gas management, assuming I did a poor job and did run out or had 2 gas failures and was OOA I would do as train and 1) Pray 2) signal buddy and get reg 3) follow him very closely till we were out of the water.

Handing off tanks is just something I do not hear about nor have heard anyone trained in. It is nothing I would expect to do.

 

[Ste Wart]

I would do as train and 1) Pray 2) signal buddy and get reg 3) follow him very closely till we were out of the water.

Like it.

 

[Dive-aholic]

D

Proper gas planning does not stop a diver running out of air. It only lowers the possiblity, you cannot reduce that possibility to zero. So the contingency then must be to swap.

No, it must not. What are you doing when you swap? Giving your partner an empty cylinder. So you're just transferring the issue to your partner.

However it is part of the IANTD standard to practice cylinder removal and you are an IANTD instructor. If this is basic drill in the course then divers should be comfortable performing this skill, wouldn't you agree?

It is a part of IANTD standards to remove and replace cylinders, not to swap. And that is a skill in Advanced Nitrox, Advanced Recreational Trimix, Normoxic Trimix, etc, not in the sidemount course.

I consider myself well drilled on cylinder removal; admittedly for stages as at the moment I dive BM. But I would also expect all divers at the same level to be as well drilled. I don't think that is unreasonable.

Stage cylinder removal is much simpler than sidemount or backmount cylineer removal.

I thought the point of SM was to get into places BM can't, and that you practiced changing cylinder positions to achieve this?

Removing a cylinder to pass through a restriction is very different than removing a cylinder to pass off to someone else.

You would be better off to argue points you are knowledgeable and experienced in. You are demonstrating your lack of knowledge of sidemount quite clearly here.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

That was not an answer to what I asked.

I asked do divers swim more efficiently attached to the long hose or individually?

It looks like the Side Mount community is split. I see some rigs with 2 short hoses and some with a long hose. It seems reasonable to assume that those diving with short hoses donate the cylinder, would it not?

I would say that those with short hoses are not diving in places with restrictions ... and what they're really doing is adapting what worked for them in backmount. So just because they're on a short hose doesn't necessarily mean they're contemplating removing one of their cylinders and handing it off to the OOA diver.

"Donating" a cylinder in sidemount isn't the same as handing off a stage bottle on backmount ... it affects you much more dramatically. I recently did an experiment to see how well I could swim with one cylinder ... to simulate the effect of either donating or dumping one of mine. And what I discovered ... and this was with HP100's ... was that although I can swim like that and maintain a semblance of trim and balance, it takes continuous effort. If you're in OW doing that, you'd be ascending ... and so it wouldn't really be an issue. If you're inside a cave or a wreck, you would find yourself working much harder, and moving much less efficiently, than if you just donated a hose and kept the cylinder.

Now, the other alternative would be to "exchange" cylinders ... but that takes even more time, and involves even more effort ... and that's assuming the "exchange" occurs smoothly, which like most things would be unlikely unless it's something you practice with regularity.

My best advice would be to get out with a sidemount friend and try these different approaches ... and decide which one works best for you. That's what I did, and my choice, if an air share is needed, is to donate the long hose and keep the cylinder with me. It is the simplest, and to my concern, most effective way to deal with the problem.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[BKP]

That was not an answer to what I asked.

I asked do divers swim more efficiently attached to the long hose or individually?

It looks like the Side Mount community is split. I see some rigs with 2 short hoses and some with a long hose. It seems reasonable to assume that those diving with short hoses donate the cylinder, would it not?

There's a very good set of video(s), on Youtube, by Lamar Hires (CEO of DiveRite, and sidemount pioneer) on provisioning sidemount rigs, and he makes a definitive distinction between "expedition" (open water), and "mission specific" (caving) rigging. Where short and long hoses are set up respectively. He never recommends passing a tank in either, rather explains the purpose of each rig, with assistance from a couple of other well accomplished side-mounters (one of whom is Agnes Milowka, recently passed).

 

[ucfdiver]

I would say that those with short hoses are not diving in places with restrictions ...

You would be giving and incorrect an uninformed statement then. Many sidemounters diving in extremely tight cave like short hoses so that they don't get caught when moving bottles around.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You would be giving and incorrect an uninformed statement then. Many sidemounters diving in extremely tight cave like short hoses so that they don't get caught when moving bottles around.

OK ... I'll stand corrected then. Do they dive solo? And if not, what's their approach to dealing with air share?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)