NAUI DIR tech course content (kinda split from DIR variances)

[Adobo]

Warning: non cave diver alert, asking a genuine question here...


Scenario:
You come to an unmarked jump, toss a line arrow pointing to your exit, tie into that, and head off into the passage. However, your exit is not the closest exit. Thus your arrow is pointing in the opposite direction of the arrows on the main line, yes?

Another team is on the mainline, no lights/siltout/whatever and is following arrows to get out. Suddenly they come across your arrow, which is pointing in the opposite direction of the arrows they've been following.

What happens now?

Sparti,

They cover a lot of this stuff in Cave 1. What I recall is that one is not meant to trust any markers that one did not put down. We can use permanent arrows as landmarks to give us an idea of things (for example, I see an arrow and it took me 300psi to get here. I will need roughly the same to get out from here. This info is useful in a lost buddy scenario - in case you have to re-penetrate the cave, you would use this to figure out your gas limits.) but we do not necessarily trust those arrows to tell us how to get home.

We do our gas planning under the assumption that we will exit the same way that we entered, even in emergency scenarios.

This answer is consistent with Cave 1 training (I think). I dunno if Cave 2 might will give you a different answer.

 

[KMD]

OK... step back for a minute.. can you imagine a situation where you come to a jump, and see a marker there. You make the assumption that the marker is "permanent" and based on that deploy the jump in your usual fashion. The problem is... the merker wasn't permanent.. you made an incorrect assumption basedon what you have previously seen. So in the interim the team who placed the marker comes through and removes it. Now what?

Wouldn't you reference yours and your teams cookies that you placed your exit side of the line?

I hear what your saying regarding the line sliding away from the cookies being placed. Not sure what the solution to that would be though I could see placing another second cookie and tying your line into that. Its not quite as efficient though.


As a side note, some diving friends of mine have been talking about a non-directional/directional cookie. This is an asymmetric cookie that can be placed such that while it is non-directional to other divers, it provides directional information to the team.

 

[Jason B]

OK... step back for a minute.. can you imagine a situation where you come to a jump, and see a marker there. You make the assumption that the marker is "permanent" and based on that deploy the jump in your usual fashion. The problem is... the merker wasn't permanent.. you made an incorrect assumption basedon what you have previously seen. So in the interim the team who placed the marker comes through and removes it. Now what?

Our usual fashion does not rely on any markers that we did not lay ourselves so the marker you are speaking of that we did not lay would mean nothing. We'd place the jump line and put a cookie (of our own) on the exit side. So now if the marker we thought was permanent is gone upon return, no biggie as we used a cookie to mark our way out. That's part of the beauty of, it doesn't rely on something a stranger placed, it rely's on something we placed and verified that day.

 

[Randy43068]

It was fascinating. I love Heather's explanations. I find myself agreeing with her 99% of the time. Practically a record high.

I too like, really like, her explanations.

Thanks Heather!!

I appreciate you taking time to share your knowledge and experience with us! Seriously, I appreciate it, as do many others here.

 

[Adobo]

Our usual fashion does not rely on any markers that we did not lay ourselves so the marker you are speaking of that we did not lay would mean nothing. We'd place the jump line and put a cookie (of our own) on the exit side. So now if the marker we thought was permanent is gone upon return, no biggie as we used a cookie to mark our way out. That's part of the beauty of, it doesn't rely on something a stranger placed, it rely's on something we placed and verified that day.

Jason,

Again, what you described is consistent with what I remember from my class. However, it does pose an interesting question in that if that arrow that you are using to secure the other end of the jump line is removed by another team, your line can now slide away from the cookie.

Maybe a corner case, I dunno. For me though, if I was on the other team and I saw that someone used my arrow to secure one side of their jump line, I would most like leave it in place.

 

[chickdiver]

Wouldn't you reference yours and your teams cookies that you placed your exit side of the line?

I hear what your saying regarding the line sliding away from the cookies being placed. Not sure what the solution to that would be though I could see placing another second cookie and tying your line into that. Its not quite as efficient though.


As a side note, some diving friends of mine have been talking about a non-directional/directional cookie. This is an asymmetric cookie that can be placed such that while it is non-directional to other divers, it provides directional information to the team.

So.. in your scenario.. a team of 3 will place 3 cookies on the exit side of the line. I'm not going to tell you that is wrong, becuase it certainly does give you confirming information, but talk about inefficient!? It takes quite a lot longer than you might suppose for each of you to deply and properly place that cookie. Much less time than the lead diver dropping an marker and tieing through it, each team member has seen this action and confirmed it for himself. It isn't going anywhere. As for ineffciency in picking up the jump, it's no more inefficient that untieing a girth hitch fromt he main line. Diver 2 pulls the "Jasper mod" (small loop) at the end of the big loop, reel man passes the spool through the large loop, picks up his marker and you are on your way.

The directional/ non-directional cookie thing is interesting, but in my mind it needlessly complicates matters.

 

[cerich]

Sparti,

They cover a lot of this stuff in Cave 1. What I recall is that one is not meant to trust any markers that one did not put down. We can use permanent arrows as landmarks to give us an idea of things (for example, I see an arrow and it took me 300psi to get here. I will need roughly the same to get out from here. This info is useful in a lost buddy scenario - in case you have to re-penetrate the cave, you would use this to figure out your gas limits.) but we do not necessarily trust those arrows to tell us how to get home.

We do our gas planning under the assumption that we will exit the same way that we entered, even in emergency scenarios.

This answer is consistent with Cave 1 training (I think). I dunno if Cave 2 might will give you a different answer.

Did you get taught to always put in new arrows every XXX feet? Otherwise you are having to trust the arrows in a cave. Esp at a Cave 1 level GUE with no new cave/jumps allowed it limits you to gold line

 

[chickdiver]

Our usual fashion does not rely on any markers that we did not lay ourselves so the marker you are speaking of that we did not lay would mean nothing. We'd place the jump line and put a cookie (of our own) on the exit side. So now if the marker we thought was permanent is gone upon return, no biggie as we used a cookie to mark our way out. That's part of the beauty of, it doesn't rely on something a stranger placed, it rely's on something we placed and verified that day.

So as you pick up the 5th jump reel was it a left or a right, now that the arrow is gone? Have you done a dive with multiple jumps yet that was long enough to cause you to question your memory or decisions? I have, and I bet you will too.

I'm not trying to be arguementative, jason. I'm just trying to make you think about alternate scenarios or situations that, though you haven't encountered them yet, may one day become a common occurance (like multiple jumps on one dive). In my Full Cave course (circa 1995) we did 10 jumps on the final dive. Combined with all the other task loading that occured on the dive, it is not unreasonable that without the "idiot proof" line tied through the arrow we may have made a mistake on the exit. These days doing multiple jumps waaay back in JB is a common dive for me- and I have yet to choose the wrong way on the exit .

 

[Adobo]

Did you get taught to always put in new arrows every XXX feet? Otherwise you are having to trust the arrows in a cave. Esp at a Cave 1 level GUE with no new cave/jumps allowed it limits you to gold line

Certain things are true.. On the way out, if I see an arrow that I didn't see on the way in, I am a little confused. If I don't see an arrow that I saw on the way in, I am confused.

However, if I get to a point where the arrows switch directions on the main line, while I understand that the arrow may be pointing to a direction of an exit, there is no way to be sure that there is a continuous guideline to open water in that direction.

That is at least what I remember. If I remember incorrectly, I am sure someone will be along shortly to correct me. Whether or not that is the best way, you will have to debate with someone more experienced.

Incidentally, you are correct regarding the limits of GUE Cave 1. However, though Cave 1 does not allow jumps under normal circumstances, it does cover the techniques used to execute the jump. The other scenario is if you have to leave the main line to search for your buddy. In that case, I was instructed to place an arrow on the main line pointing towards the exit. I would then tie off on the arrow.

 

[Jason B]

So as you pick up the 5th jump reel was it a left or a right, now that the arrow is gone?

Again, I don't rely on the arrows, I'll be relying on my cookie which will be placed on my exit side.

I'm wondering if I'm reading your scenario wrong maybe. Yes, I have done dives with multiple jumps and the cookie method has worked fine.

I know your not trying to be argumentative and certainly not taking it as such.