New safety device - survey - 2nd try ;)

[DevonDiver]

I will reiterate... the 'Buddy System' is not about proximity to your buddy. It is about awareness, communication and mutual support.

This device doesn't support the buddy system, because it reduces the necessity to observe and communicate. It might enable easier 'proximity management', but nothing else.

As for wrecks or caves, the device would be superfluous. Every scuba agency recommends the use of a navigation/safety line when conducting penetration into an overhead environment. Wreck and cave diving courses train divers to use lines, which includes constantly maintaining contact with the both the line and the buddy, by visual or physical means (depending on visibility).

Any use of this gizmo within those environments would be a deviation from the tried, tested and approved methods taught and recommended by the scuba agencies.

 

[Diver0001]

I will reiterate... the 'Buddy System' is not about proximity to your buddy. It is about awareness, communication and mutual support.

Well certainly one of the *requirements* of the buddy system is to maintain appropriate proximity because you can't "support" your buddy if you're not there.... However, proximity is a *result* of proper application of the buddy system and not not the main objective, which is what I think you're saying here.

Unfortunately, industrial designers are not necessarily divers and they probably don't understand this nuance or how critically important it is for safety.

They seem to understand that parking sensors should go off before you hit the car behind you but this device has no way to detect or alert the diver to a lapse in situational awareness until well after the effects have manifested themselves.... in other words, it won't beep until well after you've hit the car behind you....

And just like nobody should put their faith in parking sensors that beep after the collision, nobody would be well advised to rely on something like this to tell them when their situational awareness has gone out the window.....

I hope this nuance is becoming clearer as we go here....

R..

 

[ChristinaUngerer]

I can see the point, but don't forget that the Buddy-Watcher warns you when you are still in a distance to your dive partner that should allow you to PREVENT losing him.. and this way it shows you how well (or sadly) your buddy system works. The Buddy-finder-function will only be necessary in case you are for some reason (e.g. very bad viz) not able to see your dive partner although you are still relatively close to him...

 

[Diver0001]

I can see the point, but don't forget that the Buddy-Watcher warns you when you are still in a distance to your dive partner that should allow you to PREVENT losing him.. and this way it shows you how well (or sadly) your buddy system works. The Buddy-finder-function will only be necessary in case you are for some reason (e.g. very bad viz) not able to see your dive partner although you are still relatively close to him...

Well, Christina, as much as I believe that training, especially in situational awareness, is preferred, I can certainly see how such a device would appeal to some divers.

I think in this sport it's hard to bridge the gap in insights between people who put their faith in skills and those who don't see the problem with using gear to replace or supplement their skills. It's certainly nothing new and every discussion about new gear will bring it up again.

Either way, I certainly don't want to discourage you so I hope that what you've read on this thread helps you to understand the alternative point of view better.

Good luck with your thesis.

R..

 

[Kingpatzer]

Well, Christina, as much as I believe that training, especially in situational awareness, is preferred, I can certainly see how such a device would appeal to some divers.

I think in this sport it's hard to bridge the gap in insights between people who put their faith in skills and those who don't see the problem with using gear to replace or supplement their skills. It's certainly nothing new and every discussion about new gear will bring it up again.

Either way, I certainly don't want to discourage you so I hope that what you've read on this thread helps you to understand the alternative point of view better.

Good luck with your thesis.

R..

I bolded what I think are the key elements for myself in this discussion.

Any company is of course free to produce, market and sell whatever they want, with relatively few limitations. But good companies produce, market and sell devices that are fit for their purpose and which encourage and support a responsible community.

The overwhelming opinion you're getting here from instructors and well-seasoned divers is that the product you're proposing may well have some utility in keeping misguided divers from compounding errors, but it ultimately is not fit for the purpose as anyone who would need it is already demonstrating a failure to be a good buddy. It is a parking warning alarm that goes off only after you've hit the car behind you.

So the question is what, if anything can you do to address the fact that the device isn't a product that will encourage and support responsible safe diving? As described the danger your device posses is that it may well discourage responsible safe diving as poor buddies will now think they can be even more oblivious since they now have a gadget to remind them of distance and direction to their buddy.

Some off-the-cuff (and probably highly flawed) ideas come to my mind.

Can it vibrate every few minutes and only stop if the devices are brought to within a few feet of each other? This would require the buddies to not only stay within range, but to 'hook up' at regular intervals. I see huge problems with this, but it at least moves away from merely being a compass to your buddy and starts to encourage the buddies coming together to communicate during the dive.

Can it integrate into the pressure gauges and somehow require a buddy acknowledgment of remaining pressure or can you integrate very basic gas planning into the device to remind buddies to check air and to observe turn pressures? Again, huge problems for experienced divers, but it would again help teach those learning buddy skill some of the things they should be doing without the device.

How about packaging the instructions as a DVD that doesn't merely show the device's functions, but teaches those functions in the context of a series of lessons on how to be a good buddy?

Having thought about this for a bit, I believe it is possible to raise this beyond the level of a faux safety device being marketed to those who don't know better to a real training tool that supports the development of good buddy skills. But I don't think getting there is going to be about selling the distance/direction angle. It is going to be about going back to both the engineers and the folks building the associated training materials with information on what scuba divers really need to be exceptional buddies - and how do you enhance this product idea to meet that need.

 

[Sea Lioness]

I took the survey, but it was hard to answer a few of the questions. How close a buddy should be does depend in part on how bad the visibility is, as well as the other conditions (current, topography, etc.) and the experience level and abilities of the divers involved. I'm much more letting another instructor drift farther away from me than I am letting an inexperienced diver. Either way, though, the buddy should always be close enough that you can communicate with them immediately if you have a problem, (and that they can reach you quickly or vice versa) and that you always know where they are.

 

[ChristinaUngerer]

Good comments Kingpatzer... I just posted because I felt that many see the device as some kind of Buddy-FINDER but actually it is a Buddy-WATCHER... there is too much discussion about the loss of the buddy but this is exactly what the device is designed for: to PREVENT the loss...

 

[DevonDiver]

A buddy watcher?

It monitors my buddy and then alerts me if;... they are OOA, having buoyancy problems, narc'd, having equipment problems, got stung by a jellyfish, having a heart attack, got a cramp, lost a fin, feel cold, get over-exerted, feel apprehensive, flood their mask, drop their torch, get to within 5 minutes of their NDL, think their air tastes bad, see some bubbles from their HP hose, have a drysuit leak, experience vertigo, drop their weightbelt, tangle their hoses, drag their AAS in the mud, bite through their mouthpiece, wish to abort the dive, have a computer failure, get ear squeeze, feel nauseous.........................

It actually watches them and warns me to react to these and other problems??

 

[ChristinaUngerer]

It supports YOUR buddy watching - a key finder also does not crawl around in your house and come back to you with the key!

One more interesting controversy:

How important do you consider the 'buddy-compass' function? Do you think it would be a useful device if it is less expensive but only has two functions, namely the vibration when you reach a critical distance, and the alarm-button - - - or do you think it is essential to have the possibility to determine the dive partner's location, although it should actually help at preventing that you need it?

Thank you

 

[ChristinaUngerer]

I took the survey, but it was hard to answer a few of the questions. How close a buddy should be does depend in part on how bad the visibility is, as well as the other conditions (current, topography, etc.) and the experience level and abilities of the divers involved.

Yes, that's more than true. The survey first asked for the maximum safe distance in a) very good and b) very bad viz. Problem: everybody has a different understanding of what is 'good' and what is 'bad' and then there are the other factors influencing the answer, particularly the different experience levels.
It then has been decided to leave it open, since the same question had been asked in a German survey before and this way can be (well with limitations of course) compared to the results of this one. Everyone has the same problem when answering, meaning in the end, as there are a lot of respondents, we will have an average value which kind of includes all these factors. The aim is just to find out whether there are cultural differences concerning what a diver perceives as 'safe distance'. The device can at any time be set to a distance most appropriate to the respective dive.