One BP/wing for 3, 5, and 7 mil Wet Suit

[cool_hardware52]

I am virtually certain that when I decide to make the switch, I will go with DSS. But just as I avoid “trust me” dives, I try to avoid “trust me” equipment purchases.

I want to understand why one wing and one back plate would represent a compromise for what I had thought was fairly mundane recreational diving. (I am starting to gather that answer.)

I want to understand the tradeoffs between a horseshoe and donut shaped wing (it had escaped me that horseshoe/donut was what the difference was between the Torus and the LCC).

I want to understand weighting issues.

I want to better understand the advantages of a hogarthian rig (as best I can without actually experiencing it).

I want to decide to what extent I want to become a “purist.” (Having switched from Catholicism to Atheism, a new religion might be fulfilling.)

Most of my questions probably strike the habitué in this forum as brainless, but that which is presumed obvious here can be quite unexpected to a guy who has only known a vest BC for 23 years.

I probably should have started asking my questions in the hogarthian forum, rather than here. I ended up in the DSS forum because of the enthusiasm on this board for DSS products.

I can help you with most of that list. It is next to impossible, in my experience, to answer such a long and varied list of questions via PM's, Emails, or serial posts.

Each question is a point on a "decision tree" and it's best to start at the beginning and not 3/4's of way out one branch. To spend pages and pages and pages working back from some set of mis perceptions to a point where the decisions can be made in a rational order is just not feasible.

This done much more effectively, and efficiently via a phone conversation.

You are welcome to call me at 626-799-5078. Should require about 15-20 minutes. I should be around most of today.

Tobin

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

Oversize slightly? A 3mmm suit and aluminum 80 will allow he use of a very small wing, 17lbs is more than enough for most. Even a 7mm suit + 120 steel is unlikely to require more than a 30 lbs.

A 45 lbs combo bungeed wing with a single al 80 and a 3mm suit is the poster child for negating many of the benefits of a BP&W.

Being over weighted is never a good idea, and the answer is never a higher lift BC.

Tobin

I have to disagree somewhat. A 17lb wing is marginal for even an AL 80 and a shorty wetsuit. I have a 17lb Halcyon 'batwing' which I love because of the lack of drag, but I only wear it in favorable conditions. Perfectly trimmed out, it doesn't have sufficient reserve buoyancy for me to even take 2lb off another diver to assist with buoyancy tuning or to lend assistance in general. I feel sure that's why Halcyon doesn't make it anymore.

It is possible to use the same plate with different size wings and suits. I've done it. You just adjust the harness for the thickest suit. Since most divers wear their harness too tight anyway, it can work well. However, if you do a lot of different types of diving and want each rig tuned perfectly, you will need several of each. I have 4 wings and three plates and still want one more wing. That's why I think that the idea that a BP/W will save you money is BS.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I have to disagree somewhat. A 17lb wing is marginal for even an AL 80 and a shorty wetsuit. I have a 17lb Halcyon 'batwing' which I love because of the lack of drag, but I only wear it in favorable conditions. Perfectly trimmed out, it doesn't have sufficient reserve buoyancy for me to even take 2lb off another diver to assist with buoyancy tuning or to lend assistance in general. I feel sure that's why Halcyon doesn't make it anymore.

Really? I wonder how divers in the early days of scuba managed without any BC?

AFAIK, Halcyon is willing to produce them, given sufficient order size.

It is possible to use the same plate with different size wings and suits.

When have I said anything to the contrary?

However, if you do a lot of different types of diving and want each rig tuned perfectly, you will need several of each.

If perfection is your goal, across a wide variety of applications, you will need selection of wings, and maybe plates.

I have 4 wings and three plates and still want one more wing. That's why I think that the idea that a BP/W will save you money is BS.

Would you need fewer conventional BC's to have "each rig tuned perfectly" for the same range of applications? If you did which approach would cost more?

What I have been trying to communicate, apparently without success for some anyway, is that trying to purchase the one "ideal" BP&W for all conditions is simply not possible.

What is a more reasonable approach is for the OP to narrow the range of their applications, i.e. not 3mm, 5mm and 7mm, and not buoyant al 80's and negative 120's.

Pick out a target, start with the conditions and exposure suit and tanks that is used the greatest percentage of the time. Select a plate and wing that matches those requirements.

Other wings / plates may be needed later, but to start off with a huge wing (good for the most buoyant exposure suit + some) and lightweight plate ( to make sure they are not over weighted in warm water with a negative tank) will assure that the real benefits of BP&W are not realized.

Tobin

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

Really? I wonder how divers in the early days of scuba managed without any BC?

AFAIK, Halcyon is willing to produce them, given sufficient order size.



When have I said anything to the contrary?



If perfection is your goal, across a wide variety of applications, you will need selection of wings, and maybe plates.



Would you need fewer conventional BC's to have "each rig tuned perfectly" for the same range of applications? If you did which approach would cost more?

What I have been trying to communicate, apparently without success for some anyway, is that trying to purchase the one "ideal" BP&W for all conditions is simply not possible.

What is a more reasonable approach is for the OP to narrow the range of their applications, i.e. not 3mm, 5mm and 7mm, and not buoyant al 80's and negative 120's.

Pick out a target, start with the conditions and exposure suit and tanks that is used the greatest percentage of the time. Select a plate and wing that matches those requirements.

Other wings / plates may be needed later, but to start off with a huge wing (good for the most buoyant exposure suit + some) and lightweight plate ( to make sure they are not over weighted in warm water with a negative tank) will assure that the real benefits of BP&W are not realized.

Tobin

Not all of my comments were directed at your post. I was objecting to the 17lbs wing. I was only speaking of what is quite doable, but obviously not ideal.

Actually, I learned to dive with no BC and no pressure gauge.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Not all of my comments were directed at your post. I was objecting to the 17lbs wing. I was only speaking of what is quite doable, but obviously not ideal.

A diver needs to be able to hold a shallow stop. That means with an (near) empty tank their remaining ballast needs to be about equal to the buoyancy of their suit at the shallow stop.

If we assume you, in swim trunks, are close to neutral, and that a 3mm shorty will be a bout 3-4 lbs positive, and an empty al 80 is +4, you need about 8 lbs of ballast, with an empty tank.

A SS plate and harness is about -6 lbs and a reg is -2, total about 8lbs and 8 is about what you need.

At the start of the start of the dive this al 80 will be about 6 lbs heavier due to the weight of the gas.

The diver needs starts the dive negative by about 4 lbs., based on using about 5 lbs of gas in the al 80, and the suit loosing about 1 lbs at ~15 ft

If you start the dive negative by 4 lbs, you will need to use 4 of the 17 lbs of available lift to remain at the surface. That leaves 13 more to get your chin out of the water. That's not a lot, but it will work fine if the diver is properly weighted, it does not, as you note, leave a lot room for carrying "extra" ballast.

Actually, I learned to dive with no BC and no pressure gauge.

Ya, me too. We used to point and laugh at the guys with horse collars. Now the debate seems to be whether or not we need a 60 or 94 lbs lift bc

We had pressure gauges, but they stayed on the boat after we checked the tank pressure.

Tobin

 

[donooo]

I'll try and answer a few of the questions as I understand them. In the mundane world you want a fun snappy car to drive. Unfortunatly you need the car for work and you haul rocks for a living. Shall you haul rocks in your Porsche or get a truck. I mean use your 50 lb bungeed wing with your 3mil shorty in the tropics.

Horseshoes and donuts, how about old and new. To say one is better is to imply that one is bad. Not very good for marketing if you sell both.

Hog harness, clean and simple I guess. I went un-hog.I work with students and having the release on the left shoulder is better for demonstration in a jacket world. Like unconscious diver on the surface or remove and replace on the surface. Also, I am a tired old guy and I like the ideal of releasing the left shoulder to get it off over my dry suit dump valve.

Call Tobin about size and use.
Tobin, quit begging him to call.

adios don O

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin, quit begging him to call.

I'm not sure how to interpret this comment.

I'm not begging anybody to call. I am trying to get the OP the answers he needs in the most efficient, complete, least likely to confuse and side tract manner.

Tobin

 

[twinkles]

Tobin was right all along. It was much easier just to call and chat.

thanks Tobin, everyone is right when they rave about your customer service.

 

[donooo]

I'm not sure how to interpret this comment.

Tobin

Tobin I was only trying to point out that you had made two attempts to get him to call, you shouldn't need to keep trying. I encouraged him to call. He called, enough said.

O thanks for talking to Joe, he'll call back with another round of questions.

don O

 

[Jasonmh]

.. everyone is right when they rave about your customer service.

The thing about DSS is that they have the trifecta of great customer service, quality products, and reasonable prices. Not impossible to find, but definitely rare.