over weighting death

[RadRob]

as a rescue diver i can tell you that force IS sometimes necessary. when it comes to life or death you do whatever needs to be done to save the person and yourself. I am also a search and recovery diver for my fire department and I would rather be rescuing than recovering. at 6'1" 225lbs, bet the farm that I will knock you out before i worry about your broken nose, jaw, or whatever if thats what it takes to get you out.

 

[MikeFerrara]

as a rescue diver i can tell you that force IS sometimes necessary. when it comes to life or death you do whatever needs to be done to save the person and yourself. I am also a search and recovery diver for my fire department and I would rather be rescuing than recovering. at 6'1" 225lbs, bet the farm that I will knock you out before i worry about your broken nose, jaw, or whatever if thats what it takes to get you out.

Why would you ever need to break someones nose or jaw or knock them out to rescue them? Just get behind them. Approach underwater if you need to.

I'm a lot smaller than you and I've had to manage several divers in full blown panic both under water and at the surface. I never had to break anyones nose or jaw. knocking someone out in the water would seem to be contraindicated if your intention is to rescue them.

 

[shakeybrainsurgeon]

I am not saying that everyone who is dying will panic. The point I was trying to make here is that panic may have had nothing to do with this event, it may have been an epiphenomenon. If she had a fatal arrhythmia or some other event, like a closed airway, she may have remained calm and still died. We just don't know.

 

[Walter]

I have to agree with Mike. When I was a DM, I was 5' 8" and only 135 lbs. I never had a problem dealing with panicked divers without ever hurting any of them. I brought in quite a few over the years. I never had to hit any of them. Once I was treding water with no gear when a woman popped to the surface in full panic right in front of me. By the time I knew she was there, I was her floatation device with my head underwater and without a full breath. I could have panicked myself, but instead, my training and experience prevented panic. I did not fight her. I used her body as a ladder and climbed down. Once I was no longer helping to keep her higher out of the water, she let go. No panicked diver will follow you underwater. I came up behind her, grabbed her tank valve, took her to the back of the boat where I handed her to the Captain. The Captain pulled her on board. There was no need to hit her or cause her pain of any kind.

If you keep thinking and follow what you've learned, panicked divers are not all that difficult to handle.

 

[freediver]

as a rescue diver i can tell you that force IS sometimes necessary. when it comes to life or death you do whatever needs to be done to save the person and yourself. I am also a search and recovery diver for my fire department and I would rather be rescuing than recovering. at 6'1" 225lbs, bet the farm that I will knock you out before i worry about your broken nose, jaw, or whatever if thats what it takes to get you out.

Yikes! If you feel inclined to injure a person already in dire need, consider taking a lifeguard training course to better understand drowning physiology and mechanics. If these are well understood then the rescue of an in-water victim becomes very attainable. Approach from the rear, first and foremost. As Walter said, it is very unlikely a panicked diver/person in fear of drowning will follow you underwater. There are ways to preserve yourself without bodily harm to the diver in need. If you really feel it necessary to strike someone that is struggling, I would venture to say that this may be a scenario outside of your training and the litigious nature of the event is something you wouldn't want.

 

[RadRob]

Yikes! If you feel inclined to injure a person already in dire need, consider taking a lifeguard training course to better understand drowning physiology and mechanics. If these are well understood then the rescue of an in-water victim becomes very attainable. Approach from the rear, first and foremost. As Walter said, it is very unlikely a panicked diver/person in fear of drowning will follow you underwater. There are ways to preserve yourself without bodily harm to the diver in need. If you really feel it necessary to strike someone that is struggling, I would venture to say that this may be a scenario outside of your training and the litigious nature of the event is something you wouldn't want.

I have to agree with Mike. When I was a DM, I was 5' 8" and only 135 lbs. I never had a problem dealing with panicked divers without ever hurting any of them. I brought in quite a few over the years. I never had to hit any of them. Once I was treding water with no gear when a woman popped to the surface in full panic right in front of me. By the time I knew she was there, I was her floatation device with my head underwater and without a full breath. I could have panicked myself, but instead, my training and experience prevented panic. I did not fight her. I used her body as a ladder and climbed down. Once I was no longer helping to keep her higher out of the water, she let go. No panicked diver will follow you underwater. I came up behind her, grabbed her tank valve, took her to the back of the boat where I handed her to the Captain. The Captain pulled her on board. There was no need to hit her or cause her pain of any kind.

If you keep thinking and follow what you've learned, panicked divers are not all that difficult to handle.

What I was trained to do was taught by the fire associations all over the country, not a diving agency. Rescues done by firefighters by far outnumbers any diving agency so I think they have the knowledge and experience. I will stick with them.

Why would you ever need to break someones nose or jaw or knock them out to rescue them? Just get behind them. Approach underwater if you need to.

I'm a lot smaller than you and I've had to manage several divers in full blown panic both under water and at the surface. I never had to break anyones nose or jaw. knocking someone out in the water would seem to be contraindicated if your intention is to rescue them.

Obviously you have never done a rescue in rough water, or swift water, or anything other than pristine diving conditions. I don't just rescue people who are diving. I rescue boaters on lakes, people swept away in flash floods, people swept away after falling into a river, etc. When you get more experience with this, let me know. I do this several times a month, so trust me, I've been around the block a time or two.

Contraindicated? Maybe the word is contradicting that you are looking for? And sorry, but I would rather cause a minor injury rather than letting them die, but hey, thats just me. If a rescue can be done without force, I would, duh. When force is necessary (and yes it sometimes is) I use whatever necessary. Maybe that's what I like about being a firefighter, saving or helping people rather than letting them go because I was afraid to cause a bloody nose. Hmm... stupid me.

 

[freediver]

What I was trained to do was taught by the fire associations all over the country, not a diving agency. Rescues done by firefighters by far outnumbers any diving agency so I think they have the knowledge and experience. I will stick with them.

Ohh, sorry RadRob, I thought we were referring to how a Rescue diver should respond. By the way, is it policy with this National Fire Association to strike a non-compliant victim? Just curious!

 

[Walter]

What I was trained to do was taught by the fire associations all over the country, not a diving agency. Rescues done by firefighters by far outnumbers any diving agency so I think they have the knowledge and experience.

True enough, but I'd be willing to bet more panicked in water divers are rescued by working DMs than by firefighters. I'd also be willing to bet that the situations in which you might have to punch a panicked victim do not include situations in nwhich you can simply descend and come up behind the victim.

Obviously you have never done a rescue in rough water, or swift water, or anything other than pristine diving conditions.

I can't speak for Mike, but I have. In fact, it's often the less than pristine conditions that trigger the initial problem.

I don't just rescue people who are diving. I rescue boaters on lakes, people swept away in flash floods, people swept away after falling into a river, etc. When you get more experience with this, let me know. I do this several times a month, so trust me, I've been around the block a time or two.

Totally different situations and I'll humbly bow to your expertise in those situations.

Contraindicated? Maybe the word is contradicting that you are looking for?

Mike is one of the world's spellers, but the word he wanted was the word he used - contraindicated.

con·tra·in·di·cate /ˌkɒntrəˈɪndɪˌkeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-truh-in-di-keyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -cat·ed, -cat·ing. Medicine/Medical. (of a symptom or condition) to give indication against the advisability of (a particular or usual remedy or treatment).

And sorry, but I would rather cause a minor injury rather than letting them die, but hey, thats just me. If a rescue can be done without force, I would, duh. When force is necessary (and yes it sometimes is) I use whatever necessary. Maybe that's what I like about being a firefighter, saving or helping people rather than letting them go because I was afraid to cause a bloody nose. Hmm... stupid me.

Good for you, but it's rarely, if ever, needed when rescuing a panicked diver in the water.

 

[Cacia]

I will knock you out

I think the dangers of a subdural bleed would be more a worry that a broken nose or jaw....

It's not that easy to knock somebody out....are you really gonna wap them fifty times?

I'm not sayin I know...
it sounds a little movie-ish though.

It would be interesting to see the manuever in a training manual of any type...

do they have picture like my "Be Your Own Vet" on how to shoot your horse?

I might ask JB is they get taught how to knock people out...

 

[Thalassamania]

What I was trained to do was taught by the fire associations all over the country, not a diving agency. Rescues done by firefighters by far outnumbers any diving agency so I think they have the knowledge and experience. I will stick with them.

And I helped write the training manual for the New York Fire Department.

Obviously you have never done a rescue in rough water, or swift water, or anything other than pristine diving conditions. I don't just rescue people who are diving. I rescue boaters on lakes, people swept away in flash floods, people swept away after falling into a river, etc. When you get more experience with this, let me know. I do this several times a month, so trust me, I've been around the block a time or two.

Assaulting the victim is not part of professional training or protocols.

Contraindicated? Maybe the word is contradicting that you are looking for?

No ... contraindicated is the right word.