PADI after BSAC

[DevonDiver]

As others have said, most agencies; including PADI and BSAC, have direct equivalencies at their certification levels.

I took advantage of this myself, when I was a novice diver, switching back-and-forth between BSAC and PADI. I primarily dove BSAC through military dive clubs in the UK, but did PADI certifications 'out-of-interest' when on holiday. I never had any problem getting either brand of certification card accepted anywhere, anytime.

My progress was something like: BSAC Club Diver - PADI Open Water - PADI AOW - BSAC Sports Diver - BSAC Practical Rescue Management - PADI Rescue - PADI Nitrox - PADI Drift Diver - PADI Drysuit Diver - PADI Deep Diver - PADI Divemaster - BSAC Open Water Instructor - PADI OWSI - PADI MSDT - PADI Tech Deep Instructor - SSI OWSI - ANDI Technical Instructor (CSU/TWD/Sidemount) - PADI Sidemount/Tec Sidemount...etc etc

You could stay with BSAC right up to instructor level, then switch to PADI if you wanted. Everyone who wants to be a PADI instructor has to do the IDC (Instructor Development Course) and IE (Instructor Exam). So the highest equivalent that can be accepted is at PADI Assistant Instructor (AI) - BSAC Instructor levels. i.e. if you are a BSAC Club instructor (or higher) you can attend direct on a PADI IDC (and miss out the AI course, but that is not recommended really).

• BSAC Ocean Diver can enroll directly onto PADI AOW
• BSAC Sports Diver can enroll directly onto PADI Rescue
• BSAC Rescue Diver + Practical Rescue Management SDC + First Aid/CPR qualification can enroll directly onto PADI Divemaster
• BSAC Dive Leader can enroll directly onto PADI Assistant Instructor
• BSAC Instructor (any level) can enroll directly onto PADI IDC

BSAC Advanced Diver & First Class Diver have no direct equivalencies in PADI; who have no advanced-level recreational diving grades.

One of the key things with BSAC is finding an active, inclusive club to join. Clubs vary greatly and are personality driven. The better clubs are very active in promoting continual development in their members (they run frequent, progressive courses), have regular dive trips and club expeditions/holidays. The worst clubs are stagnant and cliquey.

PADI training is also incredibly variable in quality. What you get from a given course is entirely dependent on the instructor concerned. The industry is rife with 'bare minimum' providers; who do nothing more than work through a check-list of skills standards and pay little heed to your actual performance or needs as a student. You need to do some research on potential instructors; search for the best... and look for genuine expertise and specialism in specialty activities.

See my article on progressive scuba training, for hints and tips on selecting courses/instructors: The Value of Progressive Scuba Training | 'Putting Another Dollar In'

...and this one specifically on wreck diving courses: How To Evaluate A Wreck Diving Course

---------- Post added December 18th, 2013 at 10:25 AM ----------

I would have to agree being both CMAS and PADI that CMAS training is WAY more indepth than PADI. Do a quick google of the certification equivalents and you will find your cross over may be a little higher than you think. Dive Agency Crossovers BSAC, CMAS, SSI, NAUI & SAA to PADI

Some of the information given on that link isn't accurate...

 

[Wingy]

As that is the same link everyone else has given the only other one I can find is this one Equivalent Diving Qualifications: BSAC, PADI, CMAS, NAUI, SDI... | SCUBA Travel Guide - can you please point out the inaccuracies in the first link?

 

[DevonDiver]

As that is the same link everyone else has given the only other one I can find is this one Equivalent Diving Qualifications: BSAC, PADI, CMAS, NAUI, SDI... | SCUBA Travel Guide - can you please point out the inaccuracies in the first link?

First, look at the equivalencies given in my post above. Those are from direct, personal experience as an instructor in both agencies...

With the link specifically:

BSAC	PADI Equivalent
Ocean Diver or Club Diver	Open Water Diver
Sport Diver	Open Water Diver
Sport Diver with at least 20 logged dives	Advanced Open Water Diver
Dive Leader	Rescue Diver
Advanced Diver	Divemaster or IDC Candidate
Club Instructor	IDC Candidate
Open Water Instructor	IDC Candidate
Advanced Instructor	IDC Candidate

Ocean Diver is equivalent of Open Water Diver. Club diver isn't I think (sketchy on that one), but it may equate to PADI Scuba Diver.

Sports Diver doesn't need "20 logged dives" to equate to AOW. AOW equivalent is simply "proof of training beyond OW level, inclusive of further navigation and deep training". An AOW diver may has as few as 9 logged dives.

Sports Diver plus the additional Practical Rescue Management SDC (skill development course) directly equates to Rescue Diver.

Dive Leader is equivalent to Divemaster. This is a dive leadership level.

Advanced Diver (or First Class Diver) has no tangible equivalent in the PADI system. PADI has no 'advanced' recreational diving qualifications. Advanced Diver is not a dive leadership level per say..(but arguably goes beyond basic dive leadership considerably).

Club/Open Water/Advanced Instructor aren't "equivalent" to IDC Candidate. However, you cannot cross over into PADI at instructor levels. You have to do the IDC. So any other agency instructor qualification simply gets you directly onto an IDC..

 

[Phil_C]

One of the key things with BSAC is finding an active, inclusive club to join. Clubs vary greatly and are personality driven. The better clubs are very active in promoting continual development in their members (they run frequent, progressive courses), have regular dive trips and club expeditions/holidays. The worst clubs are stagnant and cliquey.

Definitely - the two clubs I belong to are very different, but for me both complement each other. One has about 35 diving members, only does air dives within sports limits, has it's own RHIB, and is active in wreck diving down to 40-45 metres around the UK coast. It organises a couple of foreign trips a year, several weekend trips to more remote (at least from the home counties where we are) parts of Britain, and also weekend open water training in quarries and the like. NITROX is as 'technical' as anyone goes. It is a good club for training through the diver grades, and has a weekly pool session with exclusive use of a 3m pool.

The other club couldn't be more different - twice as many members, a lot of technical divers, regular TRIMIX dives to 60 plus metres, a group of hard core rebreather divers, and lots of training. Several dive industry professionals belong to the club (Instructors from PADI and other dive centres/shops ) and they are very active diving for their own pleasure and the club benefit.

It can be a little bit cliquey at times, but it is generally very friendly and welcoming whatever you want to do. Again there is a pool session every week in a 5 metre (15 foot) pool which we get exclusive use of. This club also has it's own RHIB but it doesn't get out very often, the club has its own compressor room and air banks, and is just installing gas blending facilities. I have been offered rebreather tryouts, technical training and so on, and none of it is at commercial rates (but no-one dives side-mount :depressed.

The only difficulty I encountered with BSAC clubs at first was a bit of a strict adherence to their rules about dives having to be approved by the clubs diving officer, and a little bit of a 'Nanny state' attitude, but with hindsight I think that was because at first they didn't know me or my diving ability, now they seem happy to let me get on and do my own thing.

There are non BSAC run clubs in the UK, and I would 100% support club diving, BSAC or otherwise, especially in the UK, where I have always found diving outside of the club scene hard to organise and co-ordinate for a whole lot of reasons. - Phil.

 

[Phil_C]

Hi Andy -

Just a quick correction to your text - BSAC dive leader is not considered equivalent of PADI DM, it is as listed in your table, Rescue Level.

Dive Leader is considered Rescue Diver equivalent/CMAS 2 star.

The UK Health and Safety Executive also consider Dive Leader as CMAS 2 star/Rescue Diver equivalent and give the following chart for comparisons. (This is a UK Regulation so Law in the UK).


This is a screen shot of the Annex to the October 2012 version of the regulation.

Cheers - Phil

 

[DevonDiver]

Phil, those are the CMAS standards - so hardly related to what the PADI standards are. Also, the UK (specifically) health and safety in the workplace regulations don't represent any PADI policy - they are national regulations effecting only employment the UK.

This is from the PADI Course Director manual:

"To enroll in an IDC or Assistant Instructor course, an individual must:
1. Be certified as a PADI Divemaster or hold a leadership level certification with another recreational diver training organization.​

An individual with leadership level certification with another diver training organization can be:

a. an instructor member in good standing with one of the following organizations: BSAC (Club Instructor or higher), CMAS (one star Instructor or three star diver), FAUI, IDEA, Los Angeles County, MDEA, NAUI, PDIC, SSI, SAA (Instructor Grade 2 or higher) or YMCA (others may qualify – contact PADI for verification).

b. Or, a diver with proof of certification in diver supervision and management including proof of rescue diving certification."
​

I find inconsistency in the above - so perhaps someone who conducts frequent IDC can provide a more definitive answer. It does state "BSAC (Club Instructor or higher)" but also (para b.) states "certification in diver supervision and management" - which the Dive Leader certification is.

ISO Ratings

In terms of EN/ISO ratings:

BSAC Dive Leader - EN 14153-3/ISO 24801-3 - 'Dive Leader' (obtained CEN certification from the EUF certification body in 2007 and re-certified in 2012).

Scuba Diver Level 3

ISO 24801-3:2007 specifies the competencies that a scuba diver has to have achieved in order for a training organization to award the scuba diver certification indicating that he has met or exceeded scuba diver level 3 - "Dive leader" and specifies assessment of these competencies. It also specifies conditions under which training has to be provided, in addition to the general requirements for recreational diving service provision specified in ISO 24803.

EN 14153-3/ ISO 24801-3 Recreational diving services - Safety related minimum competence requirements for the training of recreational scuba divers - Part 3: The level 3 "Dive Leader" has sufficient knowledge, skill and experience to plan, organize and conduct their dives and lead other recreational scuba divers in open water. They are also competent to conduct any specialized recreational scuba diving activities for which they have received appropriate training, and to plan and execute emergency procedures appropriate for those diving environments and activities. If diving and environmental conditions are significantly different from those previously experienced, a level 3 "Dive Leader" requires an appropriate orientation with regard to local environmental conditions, and may require appropriate specialized training and experience to lead dives which have more demanding operational parameters.

​

So,... BSAC Dive Leader meets ISO 24801-3 'Dive Leader' requirements, then it should certainly satisfy PADI's requirement for "certification in diver supervision and management".

PADI QUALIFICATION ISO RATINGS

PADI also subscribe to ISO ratings for dive levels. They also attribute ISO 24801-3 'Dive Leader' at their 'Divemaster' level. See: PADI Achieves Global Certification as ISO Recreational Diving Services Standards Compliant

ISO Title	ISO Reference	PADI Equivalent
Introductory training programs to scuba diving	ISO 11121	Discover Scuba Diving (In open water)
Diver Level 1 – Supervised Diver	ISO 24801-1	PADI Scuba Diver
Diver Level 2 – Autonomous Diver	ISO 24801-2	Open Water Diver
Diver Level 3 – Dive Leader	ISO 24801-3	Divemaster
Training programs on enriched air nitrox diving	ISO 11107	Enriched Air Diver
Instructor Level 1	ISO 24802-1	Assistant Instructor
Instructor Level 2	ISO 24802-2	Open Water Scuba Instructor
Recreational scuba diving service providers	ISO 24803	Dive Center or Resort

"Because PADI, on a worldwide level, is certified as ISO-compliant, it means more international recognition of PADI certifications. PADI credentials are already the most recognised in the diving industry, but this will make it even easier for them to be understood internationally. The ISO standards will become an international benchmark that can be used to compare divers’ qualifications. This means it will be easier for divers to travel and easier for PADI professionals to work internationally.

The value of PADI becoming certified as being compliant with the new international standards is hard to overestimate. For example, governmental bodies may not be familiar with PADI credentials, but they will certainly be familiar with ISO standards. They are used as measures of quality for a huge range of things in most of the world. In many countries where it had been traditionally difficult for PADI instructors to work, local regulations have changed as a result of the introduction of the standards. This is particularly important in certain market areas such as Greece, South America and Asia.

PADI underwent a rigorous audit of its training programmes, standards and procedures in 2004 and gained certification at that time for several offices (Europe, Nordic and PADI International, Ltd.). The audits were conducted by the leading global certification body for the recreational diving ISO standards, EUF Certification International, which is jointly operated by the European Underwater Federation and the Austrian Standards Institute.

In December 2009, PADI underwent a re-audit of its programmes relating to existing ISO standards, as well as a new audit of the two latest ISO standards (Introductory Dive and Nitrox) on a global level. This means that now every PADI Office is certified as ISO compliant."

​

Now... I might be wrong, but.... if PADI adopted ISO standards to "increase recognition of their certifications" against international standards, then they would also have to accept and 'recognize' the same ISO standards/levels from other organization. De factor - BSAC Dive Leader is equivalent to PADI Divemaster. Or am I mad?

 

[Wingy]

Thanks it was the CMAS cross over I was interested in. Cheers.

 

[Hickdive]

I'd be wary of any PADI Material that still refers to BSAC "Club Instructor" as that qualification has been defunct for many years now (IIRC at least twenty).

There are still a few "Club Instructors" about who escaped the ethnic cleansing but for all intents and purposes the qualified BSAC Instructor grades are as follows:

Open Water Instructor (2* CMAS Instructor Equivalent)
Advanced Instructor (3* CMAS Instructor Equivalent)
National Instructor (4* CMAS Instructor Equivalent)

There are wrinkles such as Assistant Instructor, Theory Instructor, Practical Instructor but they're not really relevant.

 

[Edward3c]

Hi jw2013,

I'm disappointed the BSAC Branch your training with didn't explain fully how their training would be organised and confirm you were happy.

I was recently explaining to a new BSAC diver that who they train with is for them to chose, not the BSAC Branch they have joined. The same applies in you case. Its your choice whom you train with; a diver is a diver.

As someone said earlier what do you want to do once qualified?

If travel the world teaching to dive – then join the thousands that have that dream to only fine dive operators are actually looking for dive instructors with additional skills, like boat handling, engineering, 2-3 languages, etc. Dive instructors are 2 a penny.

A word of warning: dive equivalence tables only apply to the organisation that writes them. For example the BASC SALT only applies to divers wanting to commence their training with BSAC do not use it to 'guess' other agency qualifications.

Here is one that a holiday operator uses to provide dive trips.

Kind regards

 

[Phil_C]

Andy,

The table I quote is a direct copy/paste from a UK LAW and is nothing to do with CMAS itself, so they are NOT CMAS standards, they are a direct lift from United Kingdom Law about working in the dive industry -

UK Diving at Work Regulations 1997 List of Approved Diving Qualifications dated 22nd October 2012

These are what you must comply with if you want to work in the diving industry anywhere in the UK except Scotland which has their own version. The law uses a CMAS standard as a baseline, which is historic, and annoys the h*ll out of BSAC, but the bottom line is if you want to dive for work in the UK, for example on an archaeological project, or filming for TV etc., this Regulation sets the standard you must hold, and for archaeological diving sets the standard as CMAS Three Star (why I did it) - and if you are a PADI DM they will accept that as equivalent, but if you are a BSAC Dive Leader you CANNOT work on the project because the UK law does not accept it as equivalent.

For equivalencies BSAC does let a PADI DM cross into the BSAC system and get an equivalency card for Dive Leader, but all my PADI stuff says a BSAC DL can 'enrol' on a DM course, not that he is accepted as a DM.

I spent a lot of time researching this as I wanted to do archaeological diving in retirement and looked for the most efficient way to get to where I am allowed to do so. I have surface supplied and full face mask courses booked in January, and next will be full a UK HSE diving cert, but that costs a couple of thousand and may not b necessary for what I want to do, so we will see.

But I agree with you that the wording from PADI you quote is open to interpretation, and appears to give the discretion to the IDC to accept equivalent skills at their own assessment.

Cheers

Phil

---------- Post added December 18th, 2013 at 01:31 PM ----------

Hi jw2013,

I'm disappointed the BSAC Branch your training with didn't explain fully how their training would be organised and confirm you were happy.

I was recently explaining to a new BSAC diver that who they train with is for them to chose, not the BSAC Branch they have joined. The same applies in you case. Its your choice whom you train with; a diver is a diver.

As someone said earlier what do you want to do once qualified?

If travel the world teaching to dive – then join the thousands that have that dream to only fine dive operators are actually looking for dive instructors with additional skills, like boat handling, engineering, 2-3 languages, etc. Dive instructors are 2 a penny.

A word of warning: dive equivalence tables only apply to the organisation that writes them. For example the BASC SALT only applies to divers wanting to commence their training with BSAC do not use it to 'guess' other agency qualifications.

Here is one that a holiday operator uses to provide dive trips.

Kind regards

Hi Edward - wondered when you would pop along to this one, have a good Christmas and New Year - Phil