PADI gave member info to US Government

[MikeFerrara]

Had the gov't been on the ball in the 1st place, and done something about the threat that they clearly saw-yet ignored, we wouldn't be having this discusion. Personally I have nothing to hide, nor am I a conspiracy alarmist, but it does seem that we're being led blindly by being told it's for our own good....patriot act... padi records.... iraq... the list goes on.

I don't beliieve it.

Our whole system is based on not being able to interfere with people who haven't done anything wrong.

You pretty much have to do it first...of course they bend that here and there.

 

[robstrash]

Is it a violation of my privacy for you to be able to see and record my incoming phone number on a caller ID box? Some would say yes. how can I make an anonymous phone call if my number is recorded? Is it a violation of privacy if to have the ip address of your computer recorded and correlated based on computer searchs you do and the web sites you hit?

That's why you are able to block your phone number from being displayed to recipients who subscribe to caller ID. My parents do this. The only caveat is large companies that lease trunk lines for 800 number's can still get the info.

As for your computer and IP address, most people have dynamic, not static IP addresses. In order to find out who you were, they would need to get the information from your internet service provider (ISP). Most of the ISP's don't generally give out this information. The record companies had to sue to get the info so they could get all the Napster type users. Imagine if the ISP's just handed out this information when they felt like it? Luckily, they realize the privacy concerns and only disclose when required to by law.

Anyway, I got a nice respone from PADI and will post in a little bit.

 

[robstrash]

Here is the bulk of the response I got from PADI. Personally, it satisfies the issues I had. I wish the original news article would have brought some of these topics up. Here it is:

Thank you for taking the time to let us know your feelings. Hopefully, the following recent correspondence I had with another person after he had expressed concerns similar to yours will provide you with a different perspective.

Sincerely,

Jeff Nadler
Vice President, Membership Programs & Industry Relations
PADI Americas


As the person who was directly responsible for interacting with the FBI, I wanted to provide you with some background as to why we had cooperated, particularly from the perspective of two years later.

Privacy was a crucial issue for us in considering the FBI's request. At the same time, we were aware of at least one dive store owner who had told an FBI agent visiting his store that he was too busy to spend time compiling his records; the agent returned within several hours with a subpoena for those records. We were deeply concerned that if our certification records were subpoenaed, we would be unable to demand any restrictions on the use of that information.

Faced with that likely scenario, we decided the best approach was to cooperate, as long as the FBI agreed to certain conditions. Prior to our complying with their request, we received the FBI's agreement that: 1) this information is the proprietary property of PADI; 2) it was provided to the FBI Counterterrorism Division for the express and single purpose of investigation into possible terrorist activities using scuba; 3) the information would not be used for any other purpose, and; 4) once the Counterterrorism Division had completed its investigation, the information would be returned to PADI - - while it is certainly natural to be cynical about whether or not the FBI would honor their promise to comply with those conditions, I do know that when the New York State Police, which was part of the anti-terrorism task force with the FBI, contacted the FBI for the list of PADI-certified divers in their state, the FBI refused to provide it, citing their agreement with us. By the way, while the other major diver training organizations also voluntarily provided their certified diver information to the FBI, PADI was the only one who asked for and received such restrictions of use.

It's also important to recall that during the summer of 2002, when the story of possible scuba terrorism appeared, there was a high level of national hysteria and paranoia. During that time, I was interviewed by well over 200 members of the media (newspaper, radio & television); at least 25% of them wanted to know what type of background checks should be implemented on anyone wanting to take scuba classes and/or what types of restrictions should be placed on divers' activities - - how would you have felt, Mr. XXX, to find out that in order to take an advanced course or a specialty, a federal background check on you had to be done first?

Such a question is easy to dismiss as absurd or something that would never have been implemented. But that's exactly what happened to the private flight schools after 9/11, and two years later, 50% of them were out of business because of these governmental requirements. It was because we were cooperating with the FBI's investigation that the media didn't pursue their questioning on diver restrictions. That was significant in the atmosphere of the day, after the FBI had uncovered underwater terrorism how-to's in an Al-Qaeda training manual, when a congressional knee-jerk reaction to media hysteria by passing legislation on scuba diving and divers was a very real possibility.

I hope that this explanation demonstrates that we did not make this decision lightly and tried to do our very best to protect the privacy of PADI divers, as well as divers' rights. While we can certainly understand your displeasure with us, we still believe we took the correct action, in light of all the issues involved.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I didn't have a problem with it until I read that. LOL

Was that confidentiality agreement a legal contract or a gentlemens agreement kind of thing?

How much mdeia creaming do you think it would take to pass legeslation requireing a background check before learning to dive? I mean really, since in most places you don't need a certication to dive in the first place and you can get instruction from divers other than agency instructors! Flight training is a little different being regulated by the FAA and all wouldn't you say?


I guess that's about the lamest bunch of BS dribble that I've ever read.

 

[Walter]

I guess that's about the lamest bunch of BS dribble that I've ever read.

Did you expect anything else?

 

[RIDIVER501]

Exercising "an abundance of caution," the FBI says it is scrutinizing scuba shops around the country based on information that "various terrorist elements have sought to develop an offensive scuba diver capability."The three largest organizations that certify divers have turned over millions of names of students who passed scuba courses in the last three years. The FBI is checking those names against its files for potential terrorists.

A quote from the following link
NAUI and SSI shared info too
If I find more in my search I will share

 

[RIDIVER501]

]"The agent returned with a subpoena."So the Professional Assn. of Dive Instructors, the nation's largest dive certification organization, decided to furnish the FBI with computerized records of 2 million students--with some restrictions."We were concerned about privacy issues," Nadler said. "We wanted some assurances, which they agreed to, that this was proprietary information not to be used for any other purpose than investigation into potential terrorism. And they would return us the list when they were done."Jim Bram, president of the National Assn. of Underwater Instructors, said his nonprofit group also supplied the FBI with the names of students from the last three years.So did Scuba Schools International, another dive certification group. These three groups certify about 98% of all U.S. divers.

and more does follow

More info on NAUI SSI and Oh there was a subponea
and the info wasn't just handed over becuase it was asked for...go figure

 

[Janko]

Few people here seem to care about giving up their PADI records to the FBI because nobody here is a person who dropped out of their dive training and subsequently had the FBI show up at their door. And nobody here is a person who dropped out of dive training, had the FBI show up at their door and was an Arab at the same time who had just returned from visiting family in Saudi Arabia. But I sure as hell bet THAT guy cares about PADI giving up his record, even though he has done nothing wrong.

Everything the government does is great, as long as it isn't being done to you. This isn't new, and neither is the logical fallacy built into it. The "technicalities" that get murderers "off" and make the police "struggle to do their job" are not there to protect those who are guilty; they are there to protect you.

Anybody down south who feels the same way: there's plenty of room up in Canada, just vote for Kerry first and don't forget to bring a scarf.

 

[underwater daphne]

IT`s amazing - many non Americans had their "privicy invaded" and their details handed over to the FBI - Something which was done to try and protect the US ... but do they complain ?? .. no .... just the Americans .... sheesh ....

damn sure we'd complain, but we weren't informed. did they only get infos from american dive centers or worldwide? i'm sure in other countries there would have been more resistance.
i for one hold my privacy sacred. one reason i will not for any reason travel to america since their passport policy, uhm, i mean ever changing policies. that is just none of their business, so my business stays away from america or any other country that get's ideas like that for that matter.

our borders in europe are open. i travel to germany, france, austria, spain, you name it and i don't have to show my id once or stamp my passport. we will not give up our freedom or our security. life goes on as usual, thank god.

i disagree to firms being intimidated by the government and having to hand out the information of all their customers, but i don't blame the firms. a big breach of privacy and freedom.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

i for one hold my privacy sacred. one reason i will not for any reason travel to america since their passport policy, uhm, i mean ever changing policies. that is just none of their business, so my business stays away from america or any other country that get's ideas like that for that matter.

Well, I guess that goes to show that there is at least one major benefit of this policy.

Personally, I'm not particularly upset by the FBI running down potential leads on terrorists with dive training. I'm not entirely sure that this was the most effective means of doing it, but that is beside the point.

As for privacy rights, Mike's comments match up with what I heard from other shops.

I see no reason to not comply with certain requests by law enforcement for information. It's not that difficult for law enforcement to get a warrant, so there's no real reason to refuse to cooperate so long as the information that they seek is not confidential for some other reason.

My name, address and the fact that I'm a diver simply isn't that confidential.

If people really want to protect their privacy, they'd better watch where they post. It probably wouldn't be that difficult for the NSA or some other three letter agency to burn right through any protections provided by vBulletin (which is used to run this and many other sites), identify the posters and track them down. LOL.