PADI tables finally going away?

[Puffer Fish]

Tables will make a nice footnote in the history of diving, but they are obviously not being utilized by the diving public at this point. It's time to for the agencies still holding on to the facade to stop deceiving themselves that inflicting tables on students gives them a better idea about on-gassing/off-gassing physiology. It's easy enough to see your gas loading on any modern dive computer and then to see the load decrease during your surface interval.

Teaching them how to use the GEAR that they will actually be using only makes sense, which is probably why some oppose it! Too many divers have no idea what to do when their alarm goes off or how to track their dives since NO ONE HAS TAUGHT THEM. That's the real travesty: we refuse to teach these important skills.

Tables should be reserved for those who WANT to learn them as an add on or even as a specialty. Yes, you will need them if you ever get into tech diving, but very few go that route. As for the lame argument about what to do if your computer fails... well, you will need to do the same thing as when your SPG fails or if your reg free flows: end the dive! You're bound to find a rental at most dive resorts/charters.

You forgot to mention if your watch breaks or leaks or stops working...

 

[Puffer Fish]

I have used a computer on every dive I have taken, other than my Discovery Scuba Dive Experience. What I like about my computer is it keeps detailed records for me and lets me upload the data to my PC. What I don't like about my computer is it behaves like a black box and doesn't give me a good sense of security on the degree of my conditions. Moreover, it is poor at letting me plan my next dive. I can see all my options on a table whereas the computer only shows me one configuration at a time.

I take my dive tables with me on every dive. If I want to consider alternatives, the tables are the only effective answer.

You need a better computer.. most have dive planners in them...they also have them that monitor your physical state and adjust the NDL accordingly...

Mine allows both surface time and depth to be adjusted to see the new NDL limit (or deco times if you want)...

 

[letterboy]

You need a better computer.. most have dive planners in them...they also have them that monitor your physical state and adjust the NDL accordingly...

Mine allows both surface time and depth to be adjusted to see the new NDL limit (or deco times if you want)...

What computer do you dive? I dive the N2ition and it only gives me depths and times for the next dive, doesn't allow me to adjust surface interval times at all.

 

[Atom]

Well.... I've used PADI tables for about a year and a half after my certification (about 40 dives, got certified in 2008). I find the table to be really intuitive, but maybe that's because I'm a computer progammer and it kinda fit the way computers operate. I've even used an EAD table I built in excel myself (not that it's hard) so that I could dive nitrox on a trip where I didn't have a nitrox table (complete with ppO2 info, ...), gotta say the DM and fellow divers on that boat weren't sure what to think of that. I was the only diver without a computer.

I learned the wheel too in my AOW, me and my buddy even used one to plan a few multi-level dives in lakes. And I also learned how to dive with a computer in my AOW and used one in the optional dives for the nitrox course (even though we planned them with the tables).

I waited to buy a computer because.... it cost money ; ) I preferred to buy the other equipment first since you can dive without a computer but you can't dive without a reg or BCD. But now that I have my computer I wouldn't dive without it, especially for the dive logging features. And even if it has a transmitter for AI I find it perfectly safe since I left my analog SPG connected to the 1st stage in case there's a problem with the transmitter.

With all that said, I still think the tables should be taught, not everybody buys a computer just after OW and they provide a backup if your computer dies while you're diving in Kuujjuaq. But I also think computers should be part of all OW courses, since you're bound to use one someday and might as well know how to use it safely. You don't need to be taught how to use a specific computer, you need to be taught the principles of operation behind computers (measure depth + time, then computes no dec time, it doesn't monitor you N2 levels directly) and how they should be used (every one has a computer, don't swap with your buddy between dives, don't swap between dives, what to do if it craps out, make sure you can check if it's set for the correct gas, don't remove the battery between dives, ....) most computers will auto activate upon descending in the water and default to showing what you need to know (no dec time, depth, dive time, ascent rate). These notions will help you using a computer safely, you can go and get the specifics from the manual.

As for planning... they aren't that great for multiple dives (or at least mine isn't). Mine will easily tell me how much bottom time I have at depth x right now but simulating a multi-level dive starting in x minutes is a huge PITA since you have to use the simulation mode. When I want to plan a multi-dive day I'll use my laptop and the simulation software that came with my computer since it'll let me plan multiple multi-level dives in the same day with different mixes, this let know how long I should spend on each dive and how much surface interval to plan for, and I adjust for the reality of the dives I made after each dive.

 

[dmoore19]

I learned how to use the ERDP last year. I dive with a computer and I still (after the dive) do my log book (paper) logging my dives using the ERDP. I still at least plan the dive depth from what the DM says we will be doing. I just like to see where in the alphabet I am!!

 

[boles_ed@hotmail.com]

I think what is being lost in this discussion is why we use a table in the first place. Dive tables "teach" dive theory. They allow the student to see effects of depth and time in a visual format that no computer, including the eRDP, can show. Divers that simply depend upon the computer will eventually have a failure of that piece of equipment and deal with the consequences of not knowing what nitrogen exposure is about. I whole heartly agree that a computer is a great tool, but it just that. It will never replace the true knowledge about the diving environment. Our playgrounds are potentially dangerous places, if you don't understand why you are doing something you really have no business doing that something. As with all things we need to find a balance between the theory and the practical. I agree with Atom. Most computers work about the same. Lets add a module to the OW classroom about the basics just like we do with all the other pieces of gear we use.

 

[GrimSleeper]

I've never seen a diver in over 10 years of diving use a table for diving unless its their OW class and I'm coming across more and more new divers who don't know how to read their own computer or the rental computer.
I think it's time for PADI to reduce the info on tables in the OW book and take out students having to actually learn the table. Leave a page to cover the theory and basic physics so people will understand what it was used for and then cover computer usage alot more.
Divers who dive with computers has drastically increased over the past four years so why not adapt to modern times? What do you think?

You hardly ever see a diver needing to use an alternate air source, either. Why don't we drop that from the OW course? Mask skills, too - when's the last time you lost your mask? Never? Ok, let's take mask skills out of the OW course, too. Can't think of the last time I was entangled, so there's no point teaching ways to react... Tell you what, why don't we just sell people a big pile of kit, show them which buttons to press and tell them never to hold their breath? The rest of it's just a waste of time, right?

We teach tables because (a) they might actually come in handy and (b) if taught properly, the student gets some sense of what's actually going on in their body when breathing compressed gas under pressure. All a computer is doing is applying the logic of the tables, so shouldn't a diver know what that logic is?

By all means, teach OW students the basics of using a computer ("watch this number, if it gets lower than 'x' minutes start getting shallower...". Ooh, that taught them a lot), but there are already too many concessions to student and instructor laziness being made by most of the certifying agencies (and before it starts, I'm a PADI instructor, so that really IS NOT intended as agency bashing!!). Let's not chop another chunk out of diver training just so we can save a bit more time and sell a bit more kit.

 

[The Chairman]

Dive tables "teach" dive theory.

Horse hockey! Tables are just a tool just as a computer is a tool! It's a lousy instructor who can't teach dive theory using EITHER tables or a computer.

They allow the student to see effects of depth and time in a visual format that no computer, including the eRDP, can show.

How are tables "visual"??? They are only letters. Computers at least have a GRAPHIC symbolization of N₂ loading. Students get to watch it rise and fall as they dive and wait between dives. That's visual, tables are not.

Bubbles on the left side of this Veo 250 show N₂ loading GRAPHICALLY.​

 

[The Chairman]

We teach tables because (a) they might actually come in handy

Yeah, but why teach something that only "might" come in handy over something that they will actually use.

Using your logic, slide rules should still be taught to FULLY understand Chemistry and Physics. There's just no way that a pocket graphing calculator can help you understand equations!

More to the point, there were days when breathing off of an octo was NOT taught. It was introduced only after the secondary second stage started to be sold as part of the dive gear. Dive instruction should change as the gear changes.

 

[GrimSleeper]

Yeah, but why teach something that only "might" come in handy over something that they will actually use.

Using your logic, slide rules should still be taught to FULLY understand Chemistry and Physics. There's just no way that a pocket graphing calculator can help you understand equations!

More to the point, there were days when breathing off of an octo was NOT taught. It was introduced only after the secondary second stage started to be sold as part of the dive gear. Dive instruction should change as the gear changes.

I so nearly used buddy breathing as an example of things not to teach anymore, then remembered that most people don't...

I'm not disagreeing that there's value in teaching entry-level divers to use a computer. I always get my OW students using a computer on dives 3 & 4, because I'm aware that they'll probably dive that way (at least, the ones that don't just blindly follow a DM... Sigh!). But I do think that learning to use the tables first gives people a better sense of what the computer is actually doing when it displays an NDL, and the tables do offer a graphical illustration of the relationship between pressure and no-deco time rather than just a little bar purporting to show N2 loading.

I'm not sure I agree with your analogy re. slide rules/calculators: you still have to enter the data into a calculator yourself and ensure that you're using the right equation. That doesn't necessarily hold true for diving with a computer. It's the difference between working out the answer for yourself and copying it off the kid sat next to you 'cos you know they're good at math...