PADI TecRec

[J1M1]

Hey, if there's money in it, it's good to know PADI will promote it. Unfortunately, it's not like PADI cares about something like actual dive skills.

It's so true

 

[salty]

Good job on the teaching slates too they are better than all the other agencies combined as to my knowledge no one else has bothered to make any. I am not saying it is perfect no, the slates are too big to fit easily in a standard dive rite pouch, but they are better than believing I can remember everything.

"What's that? My buddy is signaling out of air! Well let me just pull out my teaching slate and see what the proper responce is since I cant be expected to rember everything."

Yes this was a sarcastic responce but when Tech diving you should know everything. You dont have time to look in a refrence book when the crap hits the fan.

 

[Otter]

Let me respond to some of your comments, and I'll resist the temptation to "SHUT UP".. ;-)

My comments are not PADI bashing, which seems to be the excuse that any time anyone questions the program that we must somehow be bashing. Nonetheless, the questions I raised STILL are not being answered despite the best efforts at misdirection.

Secondly, I did speak to Karl about my concerns, in fact, Karl and I dove together when he was beta testing the program and I had the opportuntiy to review the program even before it was ever released and I did raise these issues to which I still haven't received a response.

You can dress a bad concept up in any pretty materials all you want, but at the end of the day it's still a bad program. Diving deep on air 5' shallower then your competition [ IANTD] doesn't make your program any safer because it's still a dangerous mix, and there are better ways to do that dive.

Drew Richardson was spot on in his analysis, and parsing the language to inclde deep air dives to 165' is disengenuous at best. Furthermore, teaching technical dives by putting students on their knees speaks to a ideaological philosophy that they just don't get it. Check the archives wherein previously posted was direct comments from PADI training e-mails that detail why the crawl before you can walk method is defended. That idea doesn't work in recreational diving, and certainly has no place in technical diving.

Rather then side track the issue, why not answer how a diver can adapt to narcosis?? Why not answer how a diver can overcome C02 retention using air at 165'?? Why not discuss the merits of using 80% as a deco gas?? And all the other points I've rasied.

I don't want to have a low level debate that appears to slam PADI, I'm simply saying that I have in fact seen the program, and my analysis is that the program is deficient in the areas that I've highlighted so I'm trying to get someone from PADI to answer a question, not accuse me of bashing PADI..

Later

Mike,
First of all, I won't belabor the point that Cancun Mark is way off base in his attack on you, your experience, or crediblity....enough said.

Second the disclaimer, I don't pretend to be experienced in tec diving. I am reading broadly on gases, rebreathers, physiology and physics as a basis for practical training and will be searching out a good 'first' tec course. So I have a personal agenda to understand the pluses/minuses of the various courses being offered (and of course the various instructors offering them).

With respect to PADI's Tec Deep Course. I understand your concerns with diving deep on air -- especially when there is a viable alternative. Your other questions (narcosis, Co2) seem to be questions reinforcing the "no deep air". If they are on a different issue, please explain otherwise I will interpret your issues to be primarily focused on that deficiency.

So, is DEEP AIR such an integral part of the course that the two are inextricably intertwined and therefore DEEP AIR contaminates the entire curriculum? If, with further training and education, I decide to dive deep on a different gas mixture, will the skills, drills, etc.. that are taught in the PADI Tec Deep be irrelevant?

 

[Otter]

"What's that? My buddy is signaling out of air! Well let me just pull out my teaching slate and see what the proper responce is since I cant be expected to rember everything."

Yes this was a sarcastic responce but when Tech diving you should know everything. You dont have time to look in a refrence book when the crap hits the fan.

Does that mean I will have to memorize my deco stops and times and can't refer to a slate? Maybe I am too old and forgetful for this technical stuff.

 

[MHK]

Mike,
With respect to PADI's Tec Deep Course. I understand your concerns with diving deep on air -- especially when there is a viable alternative. Your other questions (narcosis, Co2) seem to be questions reinforcing the "no deep air". If they are on a different issue, please explain otherwise I will interpret your issues to be primarily focused on that deficiency.

So, is DEEP AIR such an integral part of the course that the two are inextricably intertwined and therefore DEEP AIR contaminates the entire curriculum? If, with further training and education, I decide to dive deep on a different gas mixture, will the skills, drills, etc.. that are taught in the PADI Tec Deep be irrelevant?

Otter,

I think the best way to address this question is to consider first an ideological philosophy and then delve into the details of the class.

Ideolgically speaking, the concept that an agency can recognize a better way to do a dive, but then teach a less efficent way to do the dive is an approach that I don't accept. More often then not, any agency that teaches deep air attempts to focus the debate on narcosis. Certainly Nitrogen Narcosis is a concern, and as near as I can tell the only solution that any deep air class offers is that of repitition. In other words, they suggest that if you keep doing the same dive using a less efficient gas you'll build up a tolerance. Despite the fact that all testing that has been done in this area disproves this theory, the question then remains, if the only thing an agency can teach is "tolerance" why does one need to spend money on the class??

PADI then threw isobaric counter diffusion into the mix as a justification for diving deep on air. PADI's purported thinking is that if you are on a helium based mix and then switch to a high 02 based mix you'll be susceptible to isobaric counter diffusion. As Karl Shreeves has written, it's essentially like shaking up a can of coke and then opening it. Supposedly, the interaction between a helium based mix and a high 02 mix can cause this reaction. That's an astounding premise an is only defied by PADI's own logic and all available studies [ which have been cited earlier in this thread]. I've asked Karl and Steve Mortell this question:

If Isobaric Counter Diffusion is such a worriesome issue so as to use air to 165', then how is it that it isn't an issue in the PADI Trimix class which starts using helium for diving in the 166' range??

Moreover, the real issue, which is the most subjective and thus the most difficult to "prove" is the buildup of C02. C02 retention will vary between every diver, will vary depending upon conditions, gear, physical fitness levels and other variables.. C02 is 130 more narcotic then nitrogen, so the point is that if the classes central focus is on avoiding nitrogen narcosis, and the only available remedy is building up a tolernace level [ even though that has been proven not to work] then why aren't they more concerned about a gas that is 130 times more problematic and why is there no prescription to remedy this very issue??

Those very critical questions are not addressed in the class, and as you say are my concerns with deep air, whether they are the byproduct or the root cause of my issue(s) I'm not sure how to adequately tie it back to your question, but I hope you know more fully understand my concerns, and I hope anyone that takes this class will push for answers to these questions, because quite literally your life may depend on them..

Thanks

 

[Snowbear]

...secondly I have recently taught the Tec Deep course for the first time. I took a long time before I felt comfortable with it and as always, the first time you teach a course is a learning curve.

How much tech diving did you do before you became a TecRec instructor? Was your original tech training with PADI or a different agency?

 

[toodles]

This is an interesting discussion.

I have been reading all the posts up to now and there seems to be quite a few different opinions which is great. I have not taken the Tec Deep course but I am very familiar with it and other agencies courses. I am certified with ANDI myself.
I think alot of it comes down to the instructor we all agree.

Mike,
You seem to have a problem with Padi's course limitations and course philosophy, especially when it comes to deep air diving.
I do not think Padi is 'pushing' deep air but why can it not be an option for divers and why can they not be given information about it?
Should we just not know about diving air any deeper than 130 feet?

What if a diver is in an area where helium is not available?
If I want to go to 150 feet to go see a wreck and there is no helium available, should I opt to stay home even though I am a VERY competent diver?
Tell me honestly, would you? (YOUR opinion, not your agencies standerds)

As you can see, I am all for giving students ALL the information.
Yes, I do beleive in pointing out the risks of deeper air diving (as Padi does).
And yes, I do beleive in pointing out the risks of isobaric counter diffusion.

I think you will also agree that helium does have it's drawbacks as far as diving is concerned (not just expensive), but it is also a great diving gas.

I do not think there is only one way to dive.
We as divers can spend our lives trying to convince one another what is right and what is wrong.
Mike, I think you can agree that we can learn from our experince diving.
I underdstand you are experienced and I am not denying your full diving resume. With 4000 logged dives you have done all types of diving for quite a while. Is the opinion you have today because of some of the things you have done in the past?
If I am given ALL the information then I have the right to decide to dive that way or not. You did this right?

Isn't Padi just addressing something that they know is going to happen so why not teach the students about it?

I am not saying the PADI program is perfect.
Nor am saying you or I am.
They have an opinion just like we do.

just my 2 cents canadian....

tp

 

[cornfed]

I do not think Padi is 'pushing' deep air but why can it not be an option for divers and why can they not be given information about it?
Should we just not know about diving air any deeper than 130 feet?

What if a diver is in an area where helium is not available?
If I want to go to 150 feet to go see a wreck and there is no helium available, should I opt to stay home even though I am a VERY competent diver?
Tell me honestly, would you? (YOUR opinion, not your agencies standerds)

As you can see, I am all for giving students ALL the information.

You're not giving them ALL the information. You're giving them all the information about deep air. If the class also covered helium then you could say students had the option of choosing what they felt was best. But this is not what you're doing.

just my 2 cents canadian....

And that was my 26,000 turkish lira!

 

[MHK]

This is an interesting discussion.


Mike,
You seem to have a problem with Padi's course limitations and course philosophy, especially when it comes to deep air diving.
I do not think Padi is 'pushing' deep air but why can it not be an option for divers and why can they not be given information about it?
Should we just not know about diving air any deeper than 130 feet?

What if a diver is in an area where helium is not available?
If I want to go to 150 feet to go see a wreck and there is no helium available, should I opt to stay home even though I am a VERY competent diver?
Tell me honestly, would you? (YOUR opinion, not your agencies standerds)

I think it's very important to appreciate my background as I answer this question. I used to dive deep air all the time, 285' max depth on air. Back when I did my IANTD trimix training, their Deep Air course was a prerequisite, and I've also had the experience of searching for a dead body after he did a 300' deep air dive. In other words, I used to do a lot of stupid things and got away with them, but I've learned from my mistakes so to answer your question, I honestly would NOT do a wreck dive at 150' using air. No dive is worth dying for, and in my opinion diving air to 150' or 165' is an unnecessary risk.

As you can see, I am all for giving students ALL the information.
Yes, I do beleive in pointing out the risks of deeper air diving (as Padi does).
And yes, I do beleive in pointing out the risks of isobaric counter diffusion.

I think you will also agree that helium does have it's drawbacks as far as diving is concerned (not just expensive), but it is also a great diving gas.

I do not think there is only one way to dive.
We as divers can spend our lives trying to convince one another what is right and what is wrong.

Please understand I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm just highlighting an inconsistency of a program that I think should not exist. For example, I believe that the notion that isobaric counter diffusion is an issue to worry about as a rationale for doing a deep air dive amounts little more to me than a scare tactic. There is no rationale basis for anyone to worry about isobaric counter diffusion in the 165' range where a diver could/should use a helium based mix. In my view, that is classic misdirection. Throw out some big fancy term to enable a risky and dangerous dive practice.

Furthermore, if ICD is such a concern so as to use air to 165' then why isn't it a concern for the Trimix program when you use a helium based mix at 166'?? That stark inconsistency has yet to be addessed by anyone at PADI..

Mike, I think you can agree that we can learn from our experince diving.
I underdstand you are experienced and I am not denying your full diving resume. With 4000 logged dives you have done all types of diving for quite a while. Is the opinion you have today because of some of the things you have done in the past?
If I am given ALL the information then I have the right to decide to dive that way or not. You did this right?

I'm all for giving diver ALL of the information, but my big problem with the PADI entering the technical market is that by-in-large PADI doesn't go the extra mile in terms of rigorous training and is more inclined to be an inclusive agency, sometimes at the expense of quality, and you maybe able to get away with that in the 60' range, but once you get into technical diving the campy, happy, positive reinforcement, feel-good approach isn't enough.. This entrance into the deep air market is more about market share then it is about the need for this class. PADI saw other agencies like TDI, IANTD et. al. establishing a great market share in Europe so PADI needed to get into the game.. Leaders don't follow trends, they should establish them and in my view I had respected PADI for staying out of the technical area and recognizing their limitations, sadly that is no longer the case.

Isn't Padi just addressing something that they know is going to happen so why not teach the students about it?

That is precisely my point.. It's "only going to happen" because agencies enable it and now sanction it. It's harder, and less lucrative, to speak out against a popular practice and that is what true leadership is all about.. What's more important selling a few extra c-cards or standing up for the principles that their very own VP of Training was encouraging others to speak out against? That sell-out right there speaks volumes in my mind.

I am not saying the PADI program is perfect.
Nor am saying you or I am.
They have an opinion just like we do.

just my 2 cents canadian....

tp

I wouldn't presume to suggest that I am perfect by any means, nor do I suggest that any agency is perfect, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop striving for excellence and you don't get there by catering to a demand for a product that you know down deep is excessively dangerous and when your own VP's proactively encourage your members to denounce in the not so distant past.. At a minimum their members deserve a reconciliation of their internal conflict..

BTW, I've raised some serious reservations about the content of the program, which noticably absent from this thread is solutions provided for in the actual class that we are discussing. That is troubling from my perspective.

But as you note, these are just opinions we hold and I respect your right to have your own opinion even if we don't share the same.

Regards

 

[Mako Mark]

Well as I seem to be the only one on the board who hasnt seen seen MHK´s resume, I seem to have stepped on some toes, but Mike you were coming on a bit strong and someone hasd to play the devils advocate, that is the beautiful anonymity of the internet for you. You could be a 12 year old school girl from another dimension for all I know.

If you have a better course, GREAT, go and promote and teach it as you obviouly have, just dont think that criticizing your competitors will change the quality of the programs you or they have developed.



Your specific questions were
1) I have a copy of the book so would you please point me to the page that discusses overcoming narcosis while breathing air at 165'??

2) Could you point me to the page that discusses overcoming the increased gas density when using air to 165'??

3) Could you please point me to the page that discusses why anyone who dives to 165' should worry about isobaric counter diffusion??

My 2 cents worth is

1 you cant overcome narcosis while breathing air at 165, so why pretend you can. I believe you can learn to cope with it, but narcosis is a chemical process in the mylin sheath. It is going to happen no matter how hard you hope or believe that it wont. you cant overcome it you can only learn to deal with it.

you need to know that your techniques and proceedures are suficiently engrained, and your task simplified to a level that allows you to dive in a competent and secure manner.

Students need to know this.

2 you cannot overcome the increased density of air at 165´ short of heating the gas, those are the laws of physics, therefore as divers we are stuck breathing a gas that you could almost stir with a spoon at that depth. What you can do is modify your activity so that you activity does not control your respiration, your respiration controls your activity. This has worked for me, This is what I would teach my students no matter which agency I was teaching for.

3 why should anyone worry about ICD, I have to agree with you, I dont personally know anyone that has had it (and I know my fair share of divers), and I have found few instructors that can adequately explain it. (yeah, its kinda sort of got something to do with Ummm??) is a common description. On the other hand it doesnt mention diabatic osteo arthuralgia and I suffer from that, the first, and to date only explanation I have seen of this outside the scientific community is in the NSS cave manual. Good on the CDS for putting out a great book! that is why I use more than one dogma/agency

To answer someone elses question regarding whether I was trained in DSAT or another agency, gimme a break, do you think I would have dared dip my oar into this type of can of worms if I didnt know a little more than just one side of the argument. I have and use matreials from TDI, IANTD, NAUI Tec, NSS-CDS, and now DSAT.

I guess my last thought is that the first string asked about the DSAT course and I have taught the DSAT course therefore I qualify for this discussion, It didnt ask the competitors of that program to criticize it.
If you like the program use it, if you dont, use another one. I heard that GUE has a good one, its just that I dont know anywhere you can buy the materials, so how would I know?

Dont forget, keep it friendly