PADI TecRec

[turnerjd]

Originally posted by DiverDave
Jon,

It seems to me that the chosen depth of 50m for Tech Rec is entirely in keeping with the “Real” technical agencies’ views of what constitutes this type of diving.

I repeat, my views on the AMERICAN tech agencies are not overly high.

The PPO2 of air hits 1.4 at 56m, which is seen by nearly everyone as the max for the active portion of a dive. It seems that defining deep as 50+ is saying that deep = trimix. 50m is a long way from home and needs planning far beyond simple recreational diving.

Dave

As some-one that was considered the equivalent of a BSAC Advanced diver (NOTE for americans, BSAC Advanced is their heighest qualification, NOT an entry level one as with PADI etc..) when I was last in a BSAC club, the BSAC allows dives to 50m (where the ppO2 is LESS than 1.4 on air, although narcosis is a MAJOR problem) for their most qualified divers.

The major problem in the UK at the moment is that with the rise of PADI, and the change in diving paterns, people aren't building up the necessary skills to go this deep. I progressed through a mix of BSAC and PADI training, and the BSAC was far more thorough, and seamlessly led upto doing dives like this. The idea that this is not recreational diving comes very much from the American agency's point of view that

1 diving is easy,
2 diving is fun,
3 deople want to have a bit of adventure without much commitment
4 diving is like skying people want to be able to do it occasionally (and still consider themselves as a diver)

Under the BSAC club system, you continued up the training untill you reached the level you wanted, and then generally people stop and just enjoy themselves. the training to do dives to 50m is similar to what you get from the 'tech' agencies, but is just a seamless progression, building on all the skills you have built up. However, the system teaches you FAR more about dive planning etc.. The PADI system all but takes this out of your hands, a good example of this is dive site evaluation. This you don't have to do untill divemaster level, even then, there is no set exercise in evaluating conditions and then making a decision on who can dive. Skills like this are learned from the beginning with BSAC.

I still say that the Tec Deep just brings PADI into line with BSAC (but not quite with the FFESSM). A 50m dive requires no more planning or special skills than any other decompression dive. In many ways, going through BSAC where you learn to do decompression diving, and where stops are mandatory on any dive (even if you are below the NDL) is in many ways a better way to approach deeper diving than the recreational training + Tec Deep course. I find it a bit worying that after a minimal number of decompression dives you can be going to 50m, and I would like to see a larger number of compulsory deco dives before people can go this deep.

This would appear to stem from the TRADITIONAL type of diving done.

Europe - traditionally COLD, deep, deco, wreck diving

US - traditionally biased towards non deco, warm water, 'recreational' diving

Jon T

PS sorry to the US divers who don't fit into the stereotype I have just outlined - it is a generalisation of the situation!

 

[Green_Manelishi]

PADI's program is deep-air and EAN.

the evidence is in and weighed that deep-air and EAN
is foolish. Deep Air Diving can be abbreviated to DEAD.

'nuff said.

 

[Iguana Don]

Jon,
You missed my point, probably cause it was late and I was tired. I didn't mean to leave out BSAC or FFFFFSSSSMMMM. I was refering to PADI not having the experience in this area to start up a program. They need to work with what they have in order to bring them up to world standards.

The qualifications you have as a BSAC diver are what is needed for your type of diving environment. Not much of that around here unless you go to the Great Lakes or the coasts.

Technical diving encompasses a lot more than just deep diving. (Walter, where are you?) There is cavern, caves, sink holes, springs, wreck penetration, trimix, normoxic and lots more.
As I said before, if you decide to do this type of diving, get specialized training.

BSAC is different from ANY certification agency, whether it be technical or recreational. There is no other club based diving org in the world that I am aware of. So for the sake of this discussion. Comparing BSAC & PADI is apples and uh horse apples.

ID

 

[Hocky]

Hi All

Without attempting to compare standards its fair to say that all agencies have a standard sufficient to ensure safe diver instruction.
The end result however is dependent on the instructor. The strength of the federation itself is determined by the way it upholds its standards and therefore the breaches of its standards.

PADI is known for its recreational courses, and not its tec courses but they do have qualified tec instructors who learned through the hard core tec agencies. These guys are prepared to bring their skills to the recreational market and if they are prepared to show PADI a window of opportunity, as long as its done professionally, I don't have a problem with it.
Give them a go and time will tell if they are doing it right.

Hocky

 

[Walter]

There are several reasons for this, I get accused of PADI bashing just about every time I mention that agency. I've expressed my opinion on technical diving before, this discussion was doing fine without my imput.

Technical diving is a poor term at best. It tries to encompass way too many things and is has too many different definitions.

Am I a technical diver? That depends on who's definition you use.

Does it matter if I'm a technical diver? Not that I can see.

I dive differently depending on the situation and with whom I'm diving. What difference could it possibly make if one dive is technical and another isn't?

There is a legitimate reason to make distinctions in different types of dives since they require different training. Cave diving is different from Search & Recovery which is different from Wreck which is different from Spearfishing which is different from Photography. They all require different training. What training does "technical diving" require? That depends on what type of technical diving to which you are referring. Technical diving is a useless distinction that IMHO we should all stop using. The only purpose I can see is to inflate egos.

I like the BSAC approach to instruction. I don't like the assumption that all US based agencies are similar to PADI. Each agency has its own unique features.

Hocky, I haven't seen the standards of all agencies, so I couldn't make a statement like you've made. "its fair to say that all agencies have a standard sufficient to ensure safe diver instruction."

Based on the standards of the 3 agencies I do have copies of, I'll have to agree that those three agencies meet the letter, but not the spirit of your statement. Following the standards of those 3 agencies, you have a safe training process. The implication is the diver is then safe to dive without further supervision, that's not true for one of the agencies, in my opinion. One of the agencies' standards do not train divers to the point where they are safe to dive on their own.

I certainly would not trust an agency to train divers in cave, wreck, deep, etc. if I had no respect for the courses they already teach. These specialties are very serious and need a comprehensive approach. PADI is philosophically opposed to a comprehensive approach.

PADI will teach various specialites and they will become the largest agency in those specialies, not because they are qualified, but because they are a marketing agency, not a training agency. With PADI teaching specialities like cave, it will become necessary to assume cave divers don't know how to dive caves, just as now DM's automatically assume OW divers don't know how to dive in open water.

WWW™

 

[100days-a-year]

To all.#1 Hocky expressed his desire to be trained to this level after a review of the course.#2 All agencies have tier strnths and relative weaknesses#3 I applaud anyone who is trying to increase thier knowledge&expertise in our sport#4Deep air is dumb but more people die from task loading and lack of anything resembling prudent thought.#5 Yes,everyone is jumping on the "tech" band wagon including most gear manufacturers with products unsuitable for real Technical diving#6 No,you can't dive with me or off my boat until I'm satisfied that your level of training is commensurate with the dive objectives and to me 130ft is the limit for air.It's like driving a car with 3 martinis;sure you can,buy why do it?

 

[turnerjd]

Originally posted by Iguana Don
Jon,
You missed my point, probably cause it was late and I was tired. I didn't mean to leave out BSAC or FFFFFSSSSMMMM. I was refering to PADI not having the experience in this area to start up a program. They need to work with what they have in order to bring them up to world standards.

Sorry ID I also slightly missed your point, partly because I dashed a response off in the middle of an experiment, and hadn't really read thoroughly the post.

On this issue of PADI not having the experience to start this sort of course I can't agree more strongly. They are very firmly in the cheep and cheerful category for open water and all other courses. BSAC And FFESSM are both club based, and they both don't fall into this category.

The qualifications you have as a BSAC diver are what is needed for your type of diving environment. Not much of that around here unless you go to the Great Lakes or the coasts.

Technical diving encompasses a lot more than just deep diving. (Walter, where are you?) There is cavern, caves, sink holes, springs, wreck penetration, trimix, normoxic and lots more.
As I said before, if you decide to do this type of diving, get specialized training.

The general guidelines I have worked from as my own definition of technical diving is gas changeing (not reg changeing) and a physical OH environment where you can't see your way out.

In many ways, cavern diving is not technical diving if you have been brought up on deco diving, after all, in cavern diving (if done to PADI standards) you should always be able to see you way out, but you have a barrier above your head. This is no different from a deco dive, it is just on a deco dive you have a glass ceiling. (all the rest of your list I would define as technical, and agree with getting the qualifications, although on what quals to get I would probably disagree with you!)

BSAC is different from ANY certification agency, whether it be technical or recreational. There is no other club based diving org in the world that I am aware of. So for the sake of this discussion. Comparing BSAC & PADI is apples and uh horse apples.

ID

I floated the idea of forming a comercial agency a while ago, taking what are a lot of the good points of the BSAC system (mentoring, extra non 'physical dive skills' such as dive planning) etc.. and putting it into context with PADI type propper educational materials, there was a reasonable uptake of this idea, so I might over the summer start talking to the relevant people, and then start putting pen to paper.

100 Days a year - 130Ft - this is the standard PADI Limit for air - has it never occured to you that in other parts of the world 130Ft on air is what people do every w/end??? I know enough people that do this depth (and more) regularly and have done so for many years. It is not a question of depth. It is far more a question of training, mental ability, training, fitness, and being in regular dive practice (oh, and some more training).
PERSONALLY - I don't go below 40m (130ft) regularly, simply because I don't have enough bottom time without hanging on a line for absolutely bloody ages, and it doesn't appeal to me (plus I know I am too narked to be effective below this depth).

Jon T

 

[100days-a-year]

Jon,yes I am aware of where 130 came from and yes it was an arbitrary #,but as you mentioned below this narcosis is usually increasingly apparent.I personally experienced 218 on air(severely Whacked).My concern remains the same in that my belief that it is an unnecessary risk.I spearfish and lobster rather deep sometimes 130-150 and usually will dive amix that keeps po2 and narcosis to a min.Doing anything else for me would be cotrary to my training and common sense.Others are free to choose thier own limits.

 

[BetterLateThannever]

As a newbie, about to begin my PADI OW certification class this week, I must say, this discussion has me a little worried. Walter, are you saying that after I am certified, I will still not be qualified to dive? In my case, I plan to dive in Cozumel. It is my understanding that you always have a Dive Master along with you.

Will I still not be relatively safe?

BLT

 

[turnerjd]

Originally posted by BetterLateThannever
As a newbie, about to begin my PADI OW certification class this week, I must say, this discussion has me a little worried. Walter, are you saying that after I am certified, I will still not be qualified to dive? In my case, I plan to dive in Cozumel. It is my understanding that you always have a Dive Master along with you.

Will I still not be relatively safe?

BLT

OK,

There are many types of diving.

At the simplest form, there is the PADI Scuba diver. This is a basic qualification, after which you can only dive with a DM or above, I will have to check this, you might actually have to dive with an instructor. I've never dived / come across (bar Gozu when she is around) a ScubaDiver.

After that, is the PADI Open Water. Officially, after this you can dive with another person of similar qualification, in similar conditions to which you have trained. Having a DM isn't actually necessary, but for the majority of 'part time' divers (by this I mean vacation divers, and others who don't go once a week or so!) is probably a good idea.

This whole thread has been about diving much further down the line, and in conditions much harsher than you are talking about.

Personally I used to dive every weekend in either the Atlantic, Irish sea, North Sea, or English channel. This is all Drysuit, dark, cold, and sometimes uninspiring diving (but what the heck, its diving!) This is challenging diving. I also don't take a DM along, since I dive with a club, we just go along as a group of friends and the more qualified look after the less qualified.

What I would say, is that yes you are qualified to dive, provided you remember about the conditions (only dive in conditions similar to that you have trained in). After you have qualified do a few dives with a DM present, and start relaxing and really diving. The more diving you do, the better you get. Join a club if you can. Paying people to take you diving all the time can get expensive. Club diving might be less thrilling as it will be local to you, but sure as hell beats 6 months out of the water. The more you dive the more experience you build up. As long as you build it up in nice small stages, you will soon find yourself quite competent, and happy to dive without a DM.

After you have qualified, PRACTICE is what you need. In many ways, PADI AOW is a practice course, you practice diving, with an instructor under a variety of situations.

Practice
Practice
Practice

I have met some very good OW divers, they have practiced and kept skills current.

Hope you enjoy!!!!!

Jon T