PADI vs NAUI

[ProtectSharks]

can you explain what Rescue Skills you as a Naui Instructor teach during OW Course ... i really would like to know them .. since it is irresponsible not to teach them ...

i think often here we have discussion where we have Dive Pro's who know there own agency but know nothing or very little about the other one

so those discussion is like Jerry Springer , you have a Treat with no end and everybody has a different opinion .. and this is what makes life more interesting ....

PADI = Put Another Dollar In ... ?? i do not think so ... i have lived more than 10 year now a very good life being a PADI Instructor , travelled around the world worked on some of the best spots and dove fantastic places and made a numerous number of friends in all country's ...

happy to be a padi Pro and i will continue and support that for many years ...

End of the Day ... the Pro, Dive Centre , and others are living from teh dive industry ... padi gets a small portion of it ... for book pic and so on ... did you ever hear from a win win situation ...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

can you explain what Rescue Skills you as a Naui Instructor teach during OW Course ... i really would like to know them .. since it is irresponsible not to teach them ...

Since that appears to be directed to me, I'll point out that nowhere in this conversation did I make that claim.

You're either a troll or just looking for an argument.

If you can't accurately represent what others are saying, please don't waste our time. You're not ... at all ... representing your agency very well with your attitude.

So no ... I won't explain a thing to you until you decide to behave like the professional you claim to be ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[supergaijin]

Given what you see in the overall diving community, it also makes me wonder how many instructors ... regardless of agency ... are adhering to the same definition of standards as you guys are ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

These are the instructors who provide me with the majority of my students ... who take those minimal classes and then come to me for subsequent remedial training.

I believe that I teach a consistant OW course and my students show 'mastery' of their basic skills before I sign their cert. I am confident in that they could clear a mask 6 months from now without unreasonable stress. However it is rediculous to believe that a freshly minted OW diver will retain the same confidence and 'mastery' if they simply don't dive for a year or two- and this is a very common scenario for 'tropical' instructors.

I would not be surprised if my students needed remedial training after training with me... and then not diving for a couple of years. I tell them about refresher courses and their benefits. I tell them about the advantages of diving or training with other people. I tell them that when they are about to drop a few thousand on their next vacation, it makes sense to get to a pool first in their home country and get wet- rather that than travel half way around the world only to discover that they've lost their skills/confidence.

So while I believe that my students are ready for planning and executing simple dives straight from their OW course, I am not arrogant enough to believe that they will still be at the same level if they do not continue to dive regularly.

It is entirely possible that a student of mine could have a diving accident resulting from failing to adhere to basic skills that we went through during the course. Of course I never want this to happen- however it is entirely possible that a student of mine will fail to CESA correctly, or have a weightbelt slip because the buckle wasn't secured, or choke because they didn't clear their reg etc. There has to be a cut-off point between 'blaming' the instructor and agency for inadequate divers.

If the diver is inadequate directly after the training, then this does indeed point to failings from either the instructor or the agency. But if NWG Diver receives one of my students a couple of years after I certify them, I won't look at that as a failure on my part- rather I will be happy because they took my advice about refreshing skills and learning new things from new people.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I believe that I teach a consistant OW course and my students show 'mastery' of their basic skills before I sign their cert. I am confident in that they could clear a mask 6 months from now without unreasonable stress. However it is rediculous to believe that a freshly minted OW diver will retain the same confidence and 'mastery' if they simply don't dive for a year or two- and this is a very common scenario for 'tropical' instructors.

I would not be surprised if my students needed remedial training after training with me... and then not diving for a couple of years. I tell them about refresher courses and their benefits. I tell them about the advantages of diving or training with other people. I tell them that when they are about to drop a few thousand on their next vacation, it makes sense to get to a pool first in their home country and get wet- rather that than travel half way around the world only to discover that they've lost their skills/confidence.

So while I believe that my students are ready for planning and executing simple dives straight from their OW course, I am not arrogant enough to believe that they will still be at the same level if they do not continue to dive regularly.

It is entirely possible that a student of mine could have a diving accident resulting from failing to adhere to basic skills that we went through during the course. Of course I never want this to happen- however it is entirely possible that a student of mine will fail to CESA correctly, or have a weightbelt slip because the buckle wasn't secured, or choke because they didn't clear their reg etc. There has to be a cut-off point between 'blaming' the instructor and agency for inadequate divers.

If the diver is inadequate directly after the training, then this does indeed point to failings from either the instructor or the agency. But if NWG Diver receives one of my students a couple of years after I certify them, I won't look at that as a failure on my part- rather I will be happy because they took my advice about refreshing skills and learning new things from new people.

I've posted elsewhere about a skills workshop I began teaching about a year and a half ago. It's not a specialty class, doesn't come with a c-card, and involves little more than working with mostly freshly minted OW divers who want to better develop skills. I created the workshop specifically for one person ... who raved about it afterward both here and on our local forum, to the point where I suddenly couldn't keep up with the demand. Frankly it surprised me that so many people would want something like that so soon after completing OW. Some of my students started calling it a "bridge" class ... meaning a bridge between OW and AOW. The workshop is designed to be "customized" to the needs of the individual student ... they tell me what skills they most want to work on, and we devise the dives around that agenda. The most commonly requested skills are ... how to hover ... how to descend without landing on the bottom ... how to hold a safety stop without accidentally ascending ... how to clear a mask without kneeling on the bottom ... how to do a weight check ... how to distribute their weights so that they're not foot-heavy ... how to kick without stirring up a lot of silt.

To my concern, these are all skills that a student should be at least introduced to in OW. Many of these students, when I cover things that I would normally cover in OW, tell me they did not cover these things in their class, or they only did them once while kneeling. This is not an agency-specific issue ... these students are coming to me from all over the state, and several from out of state.

I don't work with very many casual divers ... people who come to me generally are those who are determined to dive regularly, and are committed to working at improving their skills. They're the sort you'd expect to have put a lot of effort into their initial OW training.

So it begs the question ... why didn't these folks get better training in the first place? If they're making the effort to seek me out and ask specifically for this workshop, they obviously wanted to ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

BTW - having dived in your local waters, I don't doubt that your training would tend to be fairly thorough ... you guys get some SERIOUS current to deal with ...

 

[ProtectSharks]

Definition of Professional, please see Dictionary ..

no where in my comments you will see me talking anywhere bad to someone, or any other training organisation .... defending my point of few for sure ... but again .. everybody will have his own opinion ...

is ok you don't want to tell about what kind of rescue skills you teach during your courses

take care and dive safe

 

[supergaijin]

I don't work with very many casual divers ... people who come to me generally are those who are determined to dive regularly, and are committed to working at improving their skills. They're the sort you'd expect to have put a lot of effort into their initial OW training.

So it begs the question ... why didn't these folks get better training in the first place? If they're making the effort to seek me out and ask specifically for this workshop, they obviously wanted to ...

It would be interesting to start gathering information about the previous history of your students. Date, initial agency, location, duration of course etc.

Something I might add is that I have found divers are more and more impatient towards diving and their expected rewards. Too often one hears the posts here akin to "I've just finished OW and simply love diving- where can I see Tigersharks and Hammerheads, mantas and whalesharks (in 30m viz of course), or "I've just finished OW and simply love diving-how can I become an instructor". OW diver training is simply not designed to make 'advanced' divers. It is a modularised 'complete'diving course consisting of 'the basics', + 'gaining some experience' + 'rescue training'. In between, the individual is supposed to go diving to learn to dive. PADI was very successful doing this and other agencies copied the method.

BTW - having dived in your local waters, I don't doubt that your training would tend to be fairly thorough ... you guys get some SERIOUS current to deal with ...

When the currents are running, there is no way I would put inexperienced divers in the channels. Sometimes that is hard for the individual to stomach as people tend to have unrealistic expectations. Baby steps.

I don't think my PADI OW courses are vastly different from any other OW class- some skills are accentuated such as trim; some are introduced such as breathing control and mastering the 'art of doing nothing' underwater. But 'mum's the word' as I don't want to be accused of violating standards

 

[ProtectSharks]

sure .. and i agree with you ... and nobody will ever ask .. and it is great .. until the moment comes .. where your action and your judgement is in question ... who will stand beside you .. ?? who defend you ...

you will be on your own and better have a very good explanation why you did what and where .... that is all i say ...

and soo many ppl here talk about good instructors ... ?? still nobody can answer my question ... who is a good instructor .. who decide .. ??

training organization , customer, good training record .. who ...

have fun guy's with this topic ... it will not come to an end anyway .. and everybody has a different opinion ... so .. that was mine .. and i respect anybody else's ...

take care guy's dive and teach safe ..

 

[dbulmer]

A good instructor is someone with the theoretical knowledge, practical skill , perseverance and patience to make permanent changes to how an individual perceives, executes and enjoys a dive within an environment which does not put the student at risk but which challenges the student.

Who decides? God or science or ...

 

[DCBC]

DCBC -- Thank you for asking and I will respond, sort of, but not by statements but, to the contrary, by questions.

a. Are you allowed to teach your Open Water students to dive to 300 feet?
b. Are you allowed to teach your Open Water students to ignore the requirement to hydro their tanks?
c. Are you allowed to teach your Open Water students to ignore whatever safety standards NAUI has because YOU think they are wrong?

You're right Peter, NAUI expects their Instructors to act in the best interests of the Student. The items you've listed (amongst many others I could think of) wouldn't be. I thought for a moment though that you had something specific (other than the obvious).

DCBC, ...Yes, NAUI is (perhaps) more flexible...

My point, thanks.

---------- Post added April 3rd, 2013 at 07:05 AM ----------

Is the difference what a PADI instructor can require as opposed to what they can add? For example, can a PADI instructor require 12 completed dives for OW certification or a score of 100% on the OW written test? Can they require a vertical CESA?

On a NAUI Program the instructor can add anything s/he feels would be of benefit to the student. Regardless, 'the requirements for certification' are established by the Instructor (they authorize certification not the Agency). The 'Minimum Requirements' are established by the Agency.

To answer your question, yes. I do require a vertical CESA, require 80% on the general exam and have added a decompression exam (100% required) and tide table exam (100% required). I also include: a much more difficult in-water evaluation, rescue of a submerged victim, station breathing, bailout, buddy breathing, blackout drills, moderate harassment, an emphasis on buoyancy control/dive planning/gas consumption and a chamber dive. As Tigerman has stated "A PADI instructor can not fail you on anything other than what the agency standards require, but they can teach you more.."

Regardless of what some people say, there can be a great difference between a PADI and NAUI Program. In the case of NAUI, it really depends on what the Instructor adds to the minimum requirements. In some ways, the PADI Advantage is that what you get from Instructor A in Tokyo should be exactly what you get from Instructor B in New York (why they have the best QA in the industry). With NAUI you're assured to get the minimum, but what you really get will depend upon the Instructor's philosophy and where you take the training.

---------- Post added April 3rd, 2013 at 07:33 AM ----------

standards are there for a reason .. my opinion .. ( and you may have another one ... ) a good instructor sticks to standards ... and teaches divers within the standards to be safe and good divers .....

I think that this really depends to a large degree on where you teach and the Agency you certify through. If you certify through PADI (as I understand it), if you vary the training course, you may not be covered by liability insurance. Unfortunately however, your relationship with your certification agency (or your insurance agency) isn't the one that's of ultimate importance. The one you should be concerned with is the one between you and your Student (and you and the Court).

You are correct to point-out that what is and is not the correct action for an Instructor to take is a matter for a Civil Court to determine. In Quebec (for an example) the court determined that the Standards of the Agency were insufficient.

Liability is determined by act or omission. In other words, what did the Instructor do and what did the Instructor fail to do? I don't doubt that if I taught anyone who met the minimum requirements for in-water ability (as set by some certification Agencies), I would have little ground to stand on if the student drowned during open water training. Simply put, you can't put a poor or non-swimmer into rough water with current and feel justified.

As a NAUI Instructor, I'm expected to act in the best interests of the student. If the conditions warrant it, it is my responsibility to ensure competence before putting a student into a situation that they may not be ready for. If it's reasonable for the student to exceed the 'minimum standards,' the onus is on me to do so.

 

[ProtectSharks]

---------- Post added April 3rd, 2013 at 07:33 AM ----------



I think that this really depends to a large degree on where you teach and the Agency you certify through. If you certify through PADI (as I understand it), if you vary the training course, you may not be covered by liability insurance. Unfortunately however, your relationship with your certification agency (or your insurance agency) isn't the one that's of ultimate importance. The one you should be concerned with is the one between you and your Student (and you and the Court).

You are correct to point-out that what is and is not the correct action for an Instructor to take is a matter for a Civil Court to determine. In Quebec (for an example) the court determined that the Standards of the Agency were insufficient.

Liability is determined by act or omission. In other words, what did the Instructor do and what did the Instructor fail to do? I don't doubt that if I taught anyone who met the minimum requirements for in-water ability (as set by some certification Agencies), I would have little ground to stand on if the student drowned during open water training. Simply put, you can't put a poor or non-swimmer into rough water with current and feel justified.

DCBC I agree with you in many ways and also agree with asking students to do the little extra ...

but i really belive .. that standards make sense .. and i can within the standards teach my divers to be good divers , making sure they master all skills and theory, yes PADI is asking to have a minimum score of 75 % on the exam ... but i can teach them to the best of my knowledge and make sure they score much better right ..

in confined water PADI is asking me to make sure all students have mastered every skill, so again up to me to set the standard a bit higher than that and ask the little extra effort ... one time mask clearing will not be enough for example .. do it several times, include some games and so on ...

all good and great what people write here in the forum , but , if you ever would work in a Resort Environment , and start deviating from standards, asking students to score 100 % and add on extras, ... well you will not have this job for a long time ...

as a Free Lance Instructor on the other side .. or doing it just part time ... the story looks very different ...

standards are there for a reason ... to protect student, instructor and the agency, i truly believe i can teach good and safe comfortable divers in within the standards and do not need to add extras to it ... and this is what i believe

again .. just my opinion ...