PADI vs NAUI

[boulderjohn]

Teaching things outside of what is written in the PADI manual is not deviating from standards. As has been pointed out, Standards mark the minimum training. Every teaching environment is different and some areas need adaptation of a course in order to meet said Standards. Even PADI recognises this. I suggest you go back and have a read.... or continue to troll.

I have never taught a class in which I did not teach beyond the standards. I don't know anyone who does stick strictly to the standards. At the shop at which I used to work, the PADI Course Director who managed instruction had all of us send him a list of the extras we put into the courses. He then complied a common list f the highlights so that our shop's instruction was more consistent from instructor to instructor.

 

[Scott]

good luck for you guy's deviating from standards .. hope you never have to explain why ...

To deviate from the standard and to exceed the standard are two very different things. Same as knowing the standards and understanding the intent of the standards.

 

[261311]

A noob wondering which agency to choose, should ask a few questions before signing up for a class. There are well respected instructors who have threads, posts, blogs, and lists posted in the past, which suggest questions a new student might want to ask. A prospective student should establish which program/instructor combo is best for him or her.
Here are some questions which come to mind:
Who is teaching the class? Full time Instructor? Variety of experience? Great communicator? Track record? Do all students pass the class? Testimonies from former students?
Can the Instructor work well with people who have different learning styles?
How many hours in class? In the pool? What does the curriculum look like? Does the class focus on education and training, or is there pressure for retail sales? How big are the classes?
What are the facilities and teaching venue lke? How realistic and challenging is the training? Big pool? How deep? Where is the Open Water site? Depth? Tempuratures? Exposure protection? Water clarity? Controlled environment? Shore diving, boat diving?
More detail: Does the course emphasize buoyancy control and trim? How about body awareness? Is there extra time provided to practice and repeat skills? Is there an emphasis on dive planning, buddy protocol and rescue skills? gas planning? What finning methods are taught? Are students taught about equipment choices and configuration, cylinder materials, capacities and buoyancy characteristics?
Are dive tables or computers or a combination taught for dive planning?
Oh, and if it still matters at this point, which agency will issue the cert card?

In the defense of noobs and ignorance a typical interest for most in scuba probably follows this formula more accurately.

-Finds contact by some means with a dive shop
-I'd like to scuba dive.
+Great, we have a class for that!
-Sure, how much?
+$X, gets you X and classes are held X
-Sounds great my schedule even works for that, sign me up!

Since dive shops are businesses the majority won't direct you into asking questions that might lose them a sale, fundamentally, you are a sale. Someone is buying a service, you want to retain their choice to use you. This is why it is important to many business owners to offer at least the minimum to the competition, and even go above and beyond that by offering more things a customer wants. Research as a business owner will tell you what the competition is involved in so asking a question that may lead you to providing an answer that follows "it's important but we don't offer that" loses buyer confidence. It's only after once the consumer has a bit of knowledge that they can start to ask the important questions we all wish we had when we started. Few are blessed with knowing other divers and having them assist you, seriously in the choice of a quality dive shop and even then things aren't so clear cut. Even then, unless you're good friends with someone and a really experienced diver with essentially a check list of some sort of things you should learn, questions you're assigning others to ask to be included in their program may be overseen because they're small or too common.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

you guy's don't and will not get it ...

so once again ....

who is the good instructor and who not ... what is good additional skills and what not ... unfortunately there is nobody to decide ... so again .. it will come down to a court case .....

but ... hey .. free mind .. this is just my opinion .. and respect that there are others out there who think that they are good instructors .. or would like to be one ... or none of the above and still teach additional great skills ...

good luck for you guy's deviating from standards .. hope you never have to explain why ...

Deviating from standards is the standard for some agencies.

We are not only encouraged, but required to deviate from them based on conditions, student needs, and our own judgment. And the agency backs us up on it.

As are rescue skills in the open water class. They used to be in all of the open water classes by nearly every agency.

Until the accumulation of fast cash knocked them out of some.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[boulderjohn]

To deviate from the standard and to exceed the standard are two very different things. Same as knowing the standards and understanding the intent of the standards.

Absolutely right. The people who deviate from the standards are more like the shop that did my original certification. They did the pool work in a pool 5 feet deep. There was no hovering at that depth, and although I can't remember exactly, I am pretty sure that a lot of standards were skipped in my pool session, which lasted only two hours. I certainly did not do 5 equipment setups. I did not do a swim test. I did not have to do a 10 minute float. Those are standard deviations, and if I have known a thing about it at the time, I would have reported them.

 

[drrich2]

I agree that the typical scuba-curious candidate has nowhere near the knowledge or sophistication to discriminate between training programs for basic OW. There's another factor to consider, best explained by analogy.

Let's say a 16 year old kid wants to drive, and his state requires a drivers' ed. course completion & certification to get his license. Like the basic OW cert., a drivers' license grants you entry into the field in a way no other cert. does. So, our kid wants that license pretty badly.

There are different drivers' ed. programs in the area. One, run by a former Army drill sergeant, has a rep. for being real tough, long, thorough & demanding, but turning out high caliber drivers with an excellent safety record. But this guy is hard-core, and he fails about 20% of his students. Plus, you work your butt off to get through his course.

The other local course is run by Friendly Fred. Fred teaches per the standards in the manual, basically teaches to the minimum but does so competently and without cutting corners, and his students are, well, decent drivers (who need to get additional training if they plan to drive in more demanding conditions) who have an average safety record.

So, which course is the kid going to sign up for?

His parents and the parents of his future passengers will say sign up with hard case.

If the kid is a Type A personality who relishes challenges, he will.

I think most 16 year olds would sign up with Friendly Fred, though. After all, they want that license, and what Fred teaches is good enough for the large majority of them and how they drive.

There are shades of grey, and the politically correct answer will usually be 'more thorough training,' regardless of the standard it's more thorough than, but people vote with their feet...

Richard.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

you guy's don't and will not get it ...

so once again ....

who is the good instructor and who not ... what is good additional skills and what not ... unfortunately there is nobody to decide ... so again .. it will come down to a court case .....

but ... hey .. free mind .. this is just my opinion .. and respect that there are others out there who think that they are good instructors .. or would like to be one ... or none of the above and still teach additional great skills ...

good luck for you guy's deviating from standards .. hope you never have to explain why ...

I will happily explain why. In fact, I do explain why with every skill I teach ... if I couldn't do that, I'd have no business teaching.

I think it's you who doesn't comprehend the purpose of standards ... when and how they are applied ... and when and how one can and should exceed them. I guarantee you that I can provide a cogent justification for everything I teach ... and I guarantee you that my agency would back me up on every single one of those justifications. If I were not completely confident about that, I wouldn't be teaching.

No world-wide "standard" can be strictly applied that would provide safe instruction for all people under all circumstances. Anyone who believes it can should quite likely not be teaching scuba diving. Most who claim they can only provide the minimum training specified by standards do so because they either don't know anything else, or they're looking to make excuses for teaching as little as they can get away with. These are the instructors who provide me with the majority of my students ... who take those minimal classes and then come to me for subsequent remedial training.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Peter Guy]

[don't mud wrestle with a pig -- sigh -- but it can be so much fun!]

DCBC wrote (yet again):

My training program is approximately 50 hours and is much more difficult than a standard PADI program.

But it is also much more difficult that a "standard" (put in your own agency initials) program. DCBC, we all know you teach an Open Water program that even Bob Sherwood couldn't pass. (Just a little inside joke here.)

DCBC also wrote:

Regardless of how good the Instructor is, some Agencies restrict what the Instructor can teach you.

OK, just what Agencies restrict what the Instructor can teach you? Oh, that's right -- EVERY agency restricts what an instructor can teach you! Yes, even NAUI has restrictions on what you can teach in an Open Water Class.

Some of the posters have discussed the inital of teaching "beyond" or "exceeding" standards and some such. Me, I just try to teach TO the PADI standards -- AS I UNDERSTAND THEM! That means, I try to teach my students various necessary diving skills so that they can do those skills, reliably, comfortably and repeatedly in the manner of an open water diver.

Like Bob, I made a deliberate decision to choose my teaching agency but unlike him, I chose PADI -- in no small part for the same reasons he chose NAUI. It is my experience (and for those who don't know, Bob sometimes teaches his classes in my pool at my house) that our end product is pretty much the same.

Other than at the margins, I'm not at all sure there is a lot of difference among the various agencies but I do know there is a whale of a difference from one instructor to the next.

 

[TSandM]

well, it was NOT adequate! And this rescue went from the surface to at depth because those things were not done. Now the situation escalated and the dive buddy was never introduced to recovering a diver from depth.

Is it possible that, rather than teaching recovery from depth, these divers would have benefited a great deal more from being taught some gas management?

I provide this without the benefit of reading the comments of others...

This is one of my least favorite introductions to a post. It seems to imply a significant lack of respect for everyone else who has weighed in on the topic.

To the OP, if he is still bothering to read this: I hope you enjoy your certification class. I'm sure you know, if you have read any of this, that an OW class is just the beginning of your diving education, and there will be more to learn. As a consequence, it's a good idea to keep your first dives relatively simple and exercise prudence. You cannot check your gas enough, and you cannot practice the skills you were taught in your class enough -- you will lose them if you don't use them.

This thread, and many others here on ScubaBoard, will point you to some specific skills you might want to know. Videos like THIS one will give you examples of skill refinement you might want to have. As Cam G here says, keep diving and keep learning. And forgive us our squabbles . . .

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Like Bob, I made a deliberate decision to choose my teaching agency but unlike him, I chose PADI -- in no small part for the same reasons he chose NAUI. It is my experience (and for those who don't know, Bob sometimes teaches his classes in my pool at my house) that our end product is pretty much the same.

... and for those who don't know ... Bob also sometimes refers potential students to Peter, for any number of reasons.

I don't do this because of standards or agency ... I do it because Peter's a very good instructor who I can feel comfortable referring people to.

Different people have different needs, learning styles, and goals. It's good to have choices. It's even better to have good choices ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)