PADI vs NAUI

[supergaijin]

well, it was NOT adequate! And this rescue went from the surface to at depth because those things were not done. Now the situation escalated and the dive buddy was never introduced to recovering a diver from depth.

Again IMO... the diver was inadequate. If the diver had released the weights on the surface, the tragedy would have been averted. The information and training are there in the course. Whether or not the student retains those skills/education does not rest only on the agency or the instructor.

 

[SeaCobra]

No, the training was inadequate, as is the industry trend these days. The victim did not release weights on the surface and that action would have avoided the emergency. After he slipped below and became un responsive the dive buddy is now in a scenario he is not the least bit equipped for.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I would also say that in the incident I investigated and mentioned in this thread, that had the buddy been properly trained in rescuing a buddy he would have known to release her weights and how to do that. OW divers are often taught to dump their weights if they get in trouble. But other than in the classes I assisted with after crossing over to NAUI/YMCA I have not seen an instructor have buddies dump each other's weights on the surface in a simulated emergency. They may do a buddy check on the shore or boat but they don't have them actually remove and replace the buddys weights. On land or in the water. I do both after having seen my NAUI instructor do that and realizing how much sense it makes.
I don't think Jeff or I is talking about a full blown rescue class in the OW class. Just a few very basic skills that not only may make divers better equipped to dive without supervision but also, IMO and experience, makes them a bit more conscious that things can go wrong even in a seemingly benign environment. As a result they take things more seriously and are as a result more aware and safer. Show a diver that it really is possible to have a fatal accident on a shallow dive and that one or a few simple skills can prevent that. Then give them those skills. It's why I never feel I am diving solo on checkouts. I know that should I have a problem any one of my students can do something useful to help me. Otherwise we would not be doing the checkouts. Because by standards I am just evaluating what they know. And before I can do that I have to be confident that they can indeed do these skills. If I'm not sure they can I should not have them out of the pool yet.
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[MXGratefulDiver]

So that is indeed the main difference. I will summarize the opposing point of view.

In arguing that it is good to teach the skill of surfacing an unconscious/unresponsive diver at depth, you say it is important to do that because we don't do a good enough job teaching gas management or ESAs. Many people don't see a correlation between those very different skills.

You then point out that it would be good to be able to help a buddy who is having a heart attack get to the surface safely. Once again, that is not the same thing as surfacing an unconscious/unresponsive diver.

So let's talk about how important that skill is rather than how important other skills are. In the many threads about this topic in the past, physicians have pointed out that if you come across an unconscious/unresponsive diver, that diver is essentially dead. In those other threads, proponents have been challenged to provide an example of a single case in the history of diving in which a diver came across an unconscious/unresponsive diver, brought the diver to the surface using the approved technique, and had the diver live. There have been cases where divers who were observed in distress and passing out had people grab them and pull them to the surface, but that is, once again, not the same thing, and it is a skill that requires no instruction.

You might recall an article I wrote last year ... ScubaBoard - Scuba Diving Forum - Diving Social Network - Don't Worry - It Will Be OK

While this doesn't meet your criteria, it does point to a real case where a diver was unable to assist their buddy in a time of crisis ... due to a lack of training. In Jennifer's case, they pulled her off the bottom 40 minutes later ... and although she ultimately died due to a lack of brain function, one does have to wonder if she might have lived had her buddy been able to bring her to the surface when he initially tried to.

You might also note that the buddy almost killed himself in the process of trying. He simply didn't know how.

An extra 10 minutes of instruction and half-hour or so of practice would have given him some tools to better deal with that situation ... and very could have saved a young woman's life in the process.

Whatever rationalization people want to use, I firmly believe this training belongs in OW ... and adds value both in terms of skill and confidence to the diver at the basic training level.

To my concern, there is no reason for not doing so. The rationale that an OW student wouldn't be capable, or is already overly task-loaded, doesn't cut it with me ... OW students are capable of far more than a lot of people give them credit for. I've had 12-year old OW students take their much-larger parents to the surface from 20 feet in Puget Sound conditions ... full cold-water gear ... and tow them to the beach successfully. It's not that hard. It doesn't take that much time or effort to teach. The potential benefits far outweigh any drawbacks I can imagine ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rhwestfall]

This may sound silly, but being exposed to a rescue scenario and what it takes may too reinforce ones approach to diving to mitigate the chance of it being necessary (have to perform a rescue)....

liken it to the Rescue Class - the number one thing the class stands for is to make an awareness - the best rescue is the one that never happens.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Exactly! A Rescue class really should be as much, if not more, about preventing accidents as responding to them. Responding to them can begin in the OW class. I add additional skills in the AOW, UW Nav, and frankly any con ed I teach. No matter what it is there is at least one rescue skill included. And not one person has been overloaded or unable to perform what they were asked to do.
And unlike many of the other shops in my area who don't see students back for a rescue class, I find that giving them rescue skills actually encourages them to take the class or practice the skills.
Of course it could also be that I don't play like this a super safe activity. It's not. So they take it much more seriously.

 

[Peter Guy]

It is at all possible that we can agree to disagree or are the NAUI people so sure they are right that such is not an option?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It is at all possible that we can agree to disagree or are the NAUI people so sure they are right that such is not an option?

Does anybody really have to be "right"? Isn't that why we have different agencies?

I believe this all got started as a way of saying we don't all teach the same thing. I think we can all agree that we don't ... and let the customer decide which program they'd prefer to choose ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

Does anybody really have to be "right"? Isn't that why we have different agencies?

I believe this all got started as a way of saying we don't all teach the same thing. I think we can all agree that we don't ... and let the customer decide which program they'd prefer to choose ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Actually, that is not how it started. If it had started that way, it would have ended that way. If it had started that way, I would not have bothered to post.

 

[kelemvor]

I believe this all got started as a way of saying we don't all teach the same thing. I think we can all agree that we don't ... and let the customer decide which program they'd prefer to choose ...

That's harder than you might think for a noob. When I was signing up for classes, I almost signed up at one shop in town but changed to another after discovering the first shops' pool was not being properly maintained. It was only when I turned in the PADI medical clearance paperwork to my NAUI instructor that I discovered there was more than one certification agency. That was the night of the first class.

...and much later on scubaboard.com I discovered there's a bunch of different agencies... who knew? Not me.