Peacock Fatality Accident Analysis

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Wasn't so much talking me out of it, more like explaining how the cave just didn't require a reel. It probably doesn't, yet it just doesn't feel like cave diving without one. AND I enjoyed putting it in even with the CF factor.
pussy :wink:

(joking, for those of you who are slow to catch on...)
 
I find it hard to imagine that I'd panic and bolt if I had the line, any line in sight, but there's no way to know what what triggered her response.
That is the point everyone agrees on.

Some of us are just applying that equally to the "if she had placed her own line she would have knew where she was at and not a panicked".
The she died cuz she viopated the rules theory is warm and cuddly for the living as it is 100% controllable, so it takes the fear of "it could happen to me" out of the equation - perhaps in cases where it should not. Cave diving is not so warm and cuddly if you look beyond the 100% controllable aspects of accident analysis and actually consider the whole spectrum of *why* she *initially* became disoriented and panicked.

Why does some one panic in familar cave on well marked goldline? At a minimum you have to at elast consider that there was more going on than just faling to follow all the rules.

The changing tone of the discussion and the new evidence coming to light on past behavior supportsthat. The past behavior suggests she should have been even more diligent in following rules and diving within her limits, but at the same time it was important for her to do so because something else appears to have been going on that limited her ability to remain calm and rational. Medical, behavioral, whatever - it just suggests more was involved than breaking three rules and it suggests the event probably was initaited her own congnitive processes.
 
The she died cuz she viopated the rules theory is warm and cuddly for the living as it is 100% controllable, so it takes the fear of "it could happen to me" out of the equation - perhaps in cases where it should not. Cave diving is not so warm and cuddly if you look beyond the 100% controllable aspects of accident analysis and actually consider the whole spectrum of *why* she *initially* became disoriented and panicked.

Its been implied several times that those wanting to blame a medical condition on this incident are trying to take the "it could happen to me" out of this scenario.

Why does some one panic in familar cave on well marked goldline? At a minimum you have to at elast consider that there was more going on than just faling to follow all the rules.

She just did two visual jumps, down unfamiliar cave... she didn't trust she was where she thought she should be, and she had no infrastructure in place to validate that information. Pretty cut and dry.

The changing tone of the discussion and the new evidence coming to light on past behavior supportsthat. The past behavior suggests she should have been even more diligent in following rules and diving within her limits, but at the same time it was important for her to do so because something else appears to have been going on that limited her ability to remain calm and rational. Medical, behavioral, whatever - it just suggests more was involved than breaking three rules and it suggests the event probably was initaited her own congnitive processes.

The changing tone of this discussion is likely because as more new information about this dive surfaces, the more and more it backs up, she wasn't in familiar territory. First time making jumps(visual or not), first time in the crossover tunnel, first time doing a circuit, no mentorship(a diver who's done it once or twice doesn't count), why ignore every bit of this? Foolishness.
 
Its been implied several times that those wanting to blame a medical condition on this incident are trying to take the "it could happen to me" out of this scenario.

She just did two visual jumps, down unfamiliar cave... she didn't trust she was where she thought she should be, and she had no infrastructure in place to validate that information. Pretty cut and dry.

The changing tone of this discussion is likely because as more new information about this dive surfaces, the more and more it backs up, she wasn't in familiar territory. First time making jumps(visual or not), first time in the crossover tunnel, first time doing a circuit, no mentorship(a diver who's done it once or twice doesn't count), why ignore every bit of this? Foolishness.

From the conversation I just had on the phone this sum's it up perfectly. As much as I'd like to think there was some other issue to cause her to bolt I can't overlook that these were the first two jumps she'd ever taken and they were visual(hell they were also the first two jumps I ever took but with the major differences of being in a class with an instructor and running lines). John(her buddy) had completed this circuit exactly once before. It's sad but from what I can see this boils down to a case of Pat making a dive that was too far outside of her skill set and experience base. It pains me when things like this happen, but even more so when all the evidence points to them being completely avoidable.
 
pussy :wink:

(joking, for those of you who are slow to catch on...)

Joking aside,

I have seen MANY cave divers not bother with a primary in certain places (like JB) because the diver looks at the area and decides there is NOTHING that can cause the vis to drop so bad he/she would need it.

Unfortunately they are WRONG, a collapse, partial collapse down system, sudden flash flood with river incursion or even a lost mask with no back up can cause HUGE issues.

There in NEVER any excuse for not having a cont guideline to open water.
 
Joking aside,

I have seen MANY cave divers not bother with a primary in certain places (like JB) because the diver looks at the area and decides there is NOTHING that can cause the vis to drop so bad he/she would need it.

Unfortunately they are WRONG, a collapse, partial collapse down system, sudden flash flood with river incursion or even a lost mask with no back up can cause HUGE issues.

There in NEVER any excuse for not having a cont guideline to open water.

Wasn't there a collapse or something back in JB last year that caused the cavern area to be completely blown out for an hour or so?
 
Wasn't there a collapse or something back in JB last year that caused the cavern area to be completely blown out for an hour or so?

I was in JB about 7 years ago when there was a collapse. Viz was 0,and the flow did nothing to clear it out. I have been in a total of 4 collapses,two on top of me,and I am thankful each time for that continuous guide line,with no visuals.
 
Its been implied several times that those wanting to blame a medical condition on this incident are trying to take the "it could happen to me" out of this scenario.



.

I agree here. People have to rationalize to themselves or family members that this couldn't happen to me. In reality it can happen to all of us,even with all the measures in place,and following all the rules. People are too casual about this sport ie "I'll hook up with a buddy at the spring",I've never been here before,but we'll scooter it","This cave is high flow,so a silt out will clear quickly" etc etc etc. I have seen several good friends lost to this sport,and this is a great equalizer everytime I make a cave dive-even a dive to pothole gets my attention. I feel very sorry for people who learn to cave dive or do cave dives because of peer pressure,because they are the ones that have that little voice talking to them the whole time,and no longer have the mental focus for the task at hand.
 
I was in JB about 7 years ago when there was a collapse. Viz was 0,and the flow did nothing to clear it out. I have been in a total of 4 collapses,two on top of me,and I am thankful each time for that continuous guide line,with no visuals.

Thanks. I was thinking it was more recent than that, but the way time flies that could be the one I'm remembering.

4 collapses! :shocked2:, remind me not to dive with you! :)
 
thank you. the bolded part is the only point i've been trying to make. the rules would have likely made the incident 'more survivable' or 'less serious', but that's not a given.

russell, interesting to know she'd had an instance of panic before. thanks.

kevin, they had plenty of gas from all that's been posted.

I know what has been said but her tanks were empty when found. Go back and look at Robs map he put up. You have an older person, smallish tanks, a long freakin swim and doing thing they were not accustom too doing adding stress. She might not have been too low but low enough to make her panic, then she swam towards her blind jump hoping to hit Olsen's which is the only reason I can see swimming against the arrows.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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