Peacock Line

[H2Andy]

Andy it is the obligation of any intro cave diver single or double tanks to travel only the main line in and the same way out. The issue is not the T's as formed by a jump at double arrows. You would simply go past them and make the same return path as you said. Provided that you don't make any turns onto them then you are not in violation of your standards, remember I said a preliminary to complex navigation.

:thumbs_up that's great to know, thank you! I'd hate to break the rules
unknowingly, not so much because they are the "rules" but because doing so
could endanger myself and my buddy

The issue is the status of the lines deeper into the system and the lines coming directly from the OW entance.

yes. i should have phrased it different: "my question is" for example

 

[GDI]

Have a good dive tomorrow at Manatee Andy et all. The gold line is down to the right at the far end of the cavern zone from the stairs. You will see the warning sign (covered in silt somewhat) and the gold line will be to the right and higher from that in behind the large rocks. Pull and glide the current may be kickin'

 

[simbrooks]

Sorry it got a tiny bit off track on this topic, but it seems some of us arent completely up on what constitutes main line out and back and when it becomes complex - even if other folks have T'd off the line at any time and we get to that point of pass such a thing. I think the reason it went this way - besides my question earlier, was that it was mentioned in the lines of the UTC meeting agreement - moving the lines back to the signs from the OW seems like a good idea, i dont know about the areas of the other proposed changes, but the T at Pothole (when you are passing it on the gold line, not using it) is something that i have done, didnt think was an issue as i wasnt getting off the gold line, linear penetration etc - hence removing it would mean i couldnt do that route, just like taking out any other section of mainline. It also doesnt really affect others, except for needing to run a gap reel when they get to it, as they can continue onwards. So i agree with one change (move lines in), but not so much with the other (pothole T removal) and dont know about the others proposed.

 

[OneBrightGator]

Orange Grove does permit OW Divers and Like Ginnie the lines are back where they should be.

OW divers are only permitted in OG with an instructor.

Out of sight out of temtation. Cavern Divers are permitted into Peacock 1

You can't save people from themselves, nor should you.

 

[Dan Gibson]

I agree it should be covered early.

Since jumps are typically initiated between two arrows pointing out, if you followed the line and arrows that are permanent, someone else's jump should not be a problem. If someone puts arrows on their jump line, I guess they could screw up other divers, especially one with little experience. Hopefully no one is that dumb.

On a jump placed where there are no double arrows, that shouldn't be a problem as the person placing the jump needs to mark the line as well. Once again, I guess a dumb diver could improper mark their jump. This one seems more likely to be a problem then the first example since someone could do it virtually anywhere after the reel is tied into the mainline. The person making the jump could also forget to place a marker on the exit. Any suggestions on how to handle this type of problem? It's something I haven't really given enough thought to.

A T is a totally difference situation from my limited experiences with them. I have only seen the T used once IIRC. That was in Hole in the Wall at the mill pond. I haven't been back to Peacock 1 since the T was placed. Everything else for me has been the standard jump.

btw, when I mention complex navigation, it was explained to me that any time you make a directional decision, that qualified as complex navigation. That meant jumps and Tees were out. Gaps were ok (GUE cave 1 taining) since no direction decision is required. It is effectively one line. Jumps didn't cause a problem at the time as we always saw double arrows. Then again, we always had a large thick yellow line as the mainline.

edit: gaps only at sinks where you could exit.

What if an Intro diver comes upon someone else's jump, or finds one on his exit? How to deal with T's in the line needs to be covered in Intro because if they do any amount of diving after the class they will run into them in one form or another.

 

[PacerFan577]

Also considering that cavern divers are minimally different in how they are equiped compared to open water divers (no redundant reg, only two lights required and a single tank not even a din valve ) they are in themselves the reason that the gold lines need to be back at least 200 feet from the surface. Out of sight out of temtation. Cavern Divers are permitted into Peacock 1

The key difference between Cavern divers and Open Water divers is that Cavern divers have received overhead training and know better. The argument as to keeping the lines out of the reach of Open Water divers is because they don't know any better since they haven't even been exposed to the training.

 

[GDI]

Yes Cavern divers should know better as they have had additional training. OW Divers in any basic scuba book that I have read have been exposed to the risks of overhead environments therefore if they were trained correctly they to should also know better.

but people are people

The key difference between Cavern divers and Open Water divers is that Cavern divers have received overhead training and know better. The argument as to keeping the lines out of the reach of Open Water divers is because they don't know any better since they haven't even been exposed to the training.

 

[GDI]

OW divers are only permitted in OG with an instructor.

This is correct I didn't mention that but then more often then not instructors are the worst violators. I believe this point is made on the warning signs?

You can't save people from themselves, nor should you.

As an instructor my job is to (in part) save people from themselves. Some make this an almost impossible task. Once out of the instructor's sight however...... well, lifes a box of chocolates isn't it


Why are you so against placing the lines back to their original positions?

 

[scubafool]

As an instructor my job is to (in part) save people from themselves. Some make this an almost impossible task. Once out of the instructor's sight however...... well, lifes a box of chocolates isn't it


Why are you so against placing the lines back to their original positions?

You gave my answer to your question in your post. Once a diver is out of your sight, you have no control over them. So if an apprentice diver that you certified the week before shows up at Peacock 1 on a busy weekend, sees 4 primaries leading into the overhead, & says "That looks like a cluster****, I think I will visual to the mainline" & than things go south for him/her, they have a better chance of surviving with the line as they are vs. as you want them to be.

I kind of get what you are saying as far as "One way all of the time so you always know what to expect", but if I 100% agreed with that thought pattern I would be going the DIR/GUE path. I think that you must adapt procedures to the situation, & the situation @ P1 is, I think, best served by the current line configuration.

 

[OneBrightGator]

As an instructor my job is to (in part) save people from themselves. Some make this an almost impossible task. Once out of the instructor's sight however...... well, lifes a box of chocolates isn't it

And then when you fail, and someone dies, which they will, idiots are smarter then we give them credit for, should you then be held accountable? Should I because I'm also an instructor?

Why are you so against placing the lines back to their original positions?

My thoughts are posted on TDS, feel free to read over them, but to sum them up, I am not against moving the lines, but if you want to move them you need to back them up with sound reasoning, not the catch-all bull**** reasons listed in the letter. The real battle here is between the divers and the instructors and who really holds the power in the cave diving community. I, for one, will not roll over to what you want if it is not in my best interest.