Pony setup: Octopus or not ?

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Carrying a 40 is standard in many places. However, I always question the real need for one. Putting that issue aside, were I you I'd keep your long hose and bungee backup. It's a great choice, incidentally.

If you must dive with a pony, then plan on never using it. It's there for emergency use only, is it not? So, if your team mate finds himself out of air, proper planning on your part should have reserved enough air for him and you. Right? So, you loan him your primary, you go on the bungeed second. Right?

Then if you exhaust your air supply you are now in the emergent situation. Right? Now you do an air share with the pony.

So why in the world would you want to ditch one of your regulators??
I'm using a 3Liter pony setup with 1st and 2nd stage. Beside that I have my main regulator with first and 2nd stage + octopus.

As I would like to get rid of as much unneccesary stuff as possible, I'm considering if I need the octopus anymore. I'm able to supply air to my buddy in an emergency situation. As well as having an independant air souce for myself, in case anything happen to my main airsupply.

I would like to know, if others have the same considerations.
Perhaps there is situations I havent thought about, where it would still be good to have the octopus available, even I have the pony with me.

any thoughts and input are very much appreciated
 
Carrying a 40 is standard in many places. However, I always question the real need for one. Putting that issue aside, were I you I'd keep your long hose and bungee backup. It's a great choice, incidentally.

If you must dive with a pony, then plan on never using it. It's there for emergency use only, is it not? So, if your team mate finds himself out of air, proper planning on your part should have reserved enough air for him and you. Right? So, you loan him your primary, you go on the bungeed second. Right?

Then if you exhaust your air supply you are now in the emergent situation. Right? Now you do an air share with the pony.

So why in the world would you want to ditch one of your regulators??

Not sure I agree.

If you have to give your buddy air in this situation, it's the end of the dive. It really doesn't matter if you give him the primary, secondary, or pony. Buddy needs air. Buddy gets air. You are going up. Now. So, as I see it, it really doesn't matter if you are breathing both from your backgas, or one from the backgas and one from the pony. As long as you have air to give to your buddy that is all that is important.

Your pony has of course to be big enough to get you to the surface from whatever depth you are at, with any safety stops necessary (or perhaps a few minutes deco if this is necessary), I think having a big enough pony for the two of you to get back up is a bit OTT however.

I have however assumed that we are not talking overhead environment here. Neither are we talking about multiple gasses. No cave diver / wreck penetration / deco people use a pony do they? They have proper gas management (rule of thirds) stage cylinders etc.... a far more complicated game. I have assume it is just non technical air or nitrox diving.

I always think of it like this:

An octo is for your Buddy - you have a way of giving them air if they need it. Example is they are OOA or have a regulator failure. They also have an octo to give you if you have an OOA or reg failure. - use the octo, and the dive is over. Your octo is no use to you unless you have a second stage failure, and an isolator valve to cut-off the failed second stage.

A pony is for you - you have air in-case you have an OOA or regulator failure (or buddy failure). But - you can always give air from the pony to your buddy as well. Either of you use the pony and the dive is over.

So, within rec limits, the pony is actually a better solution for YOU than your having an octo. It is an equivalent / identical solution for your buddy. This is especially true if you are diving with unknown buddies, and it does make the octopus redundant.

Jon
 
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What's to disagree? he was asking if he should get rid of a regulator. I said no.

Not sure I agree.

If you have to give your buddy air in this situation, it's the end of the dive. It really doesn't matter if you give him the primary, secondary, or pony. Buddy needs air. Buddy gets air. You are going up. Now. So, as I see it, it really doesn't matter if you are breathing both from your backgas, or one from the backgas and one from the pony. As long as you have air to give to your buddy that is all that is important.

Your pony has of course to be big enough to get you to the surface from whatever depth you are at, with any safety stops necessary (or perhaps a few minutes deco if this is necessary), I think having a big enough pony for the two of you to get back up is a bit OTT however.

I have however assumed that we are not talking overhead environment here. Neither are we talking about multiple gasses. No cave diver / wreck penetration / deco people use a pony do they? They have proper gas management (rule of thirds) stage cylinders etc.... a far more complicated game. I have assume it is just non technical air or nitrox diving.

I always think of it like this:

An octo is for your Buddy - you have a way of giving them air if they need it. Example is they are OOA or have a regulator failure. They also have an octo to give you if you have an OOA or reg failure. - use the octo, and the dive is over. Your octo is no use to you unless you have a second stage failure, and an isolator valve to cut-off the failed second stage.

A pony is for you - you have air in-case you have an OOA or regulator failure (or buddy failure). But - you can always give air from the pony to your buddy as well. Either of you use the pony and the dive is over.

So, within rec limits, the pony is actually a better solution for YOU than your having an octo. It is an equivalent / identical solution for your buddy. This is especially true if you are diving with unknown buddies, and it does make the octopus redundant.

Jon


---------- Post added April 5th, 2012 at 11:47 AM ----------

Somehow you never were taught about diving in a team it would appear.

Not sure I agree.

If you have to give your buddy air in this situation, it's the end of the dive. It really doesn't matter if you give him the primary, secondary, or pony. Buddy needs air. Buddy gets air. You are going up. Now. So, as I see it, it really doesn't matter if you are breathing both from your backgas, or one from the backgas and one from the pony. As long as you have air to give to your buddy that is all that is important.

Your pony has of course to be big enough to get you to the surface from whatever depth you are at, with any safety stops necessary (or perhaps a few minutes deco if this is necessary), I think having a big enough pony for the two of you to get back up is a bit OTT however.

I have however assumed that we are not talking overhead environment here. Neither are we talking about multiple gasses. No cave diver / wreck penetration / deco people use a pony do they? They have proper gas management (rule of thirds) stage cylinders etc.... a far more complicated game. I have assume it is just non technical air or nitrox diving.

I always think of it like this:

An octo is for your Buddy - you have a way of giving them air if they need it. Example is they are OOA or have a regulator failure. They also have an octo to give you if you have an OOA or reg failure. - use the octo, and the dive is over. Your octo is no use to you unless you have a second stage failure, and an isolator valve to cut-off the failed second stage.

A pony is for you - you have air in-case you have an OOA or regulator failure (or buddy failure). But - you can always give air from the pony to your buddy as well. Either of you use the pony and the dive is over.

So, within rec limits, the pony is actually a better solution for YOU than your having an octo. It is an equivalent / identical solution for your buddy. This is especially true if you are diving with unknown buddies, and it does make the octopus redundant.

Jon
 
What's to disagree? he was asking if he should get rid of a regulator. I said no.

I said Yes. I think that the octopus becomes redundant when you have a pony. I would happily dive with somebody that has removed their octopus, but has a pony tank.

Somehow you never were taught about diving in a team it would appear.

Why do you say that? A pony is a redundant air source that has no effect on your buddy, and a positive safety effect for you. It does not change in any way, manner or form the way you behave towards your buddy, or how you plan your dive, or how you deal with an emergency under water. The team is still the team, and you have an extra bit of safety.

Personally I prefer diving with a Y valve on my tank (this is the norm in France) and having two first stages, with one second stage on each, and not having a pony. This is the single tank equivalent of manifolded doubles. I can close down either reg and still have access to my air. Does diving like this make somebody that doesn't dive as part of a team? I don't think so, as this is the normal setup here.

Jon
 
A pony is a redundant air source that has no effect on your buddy, and a positive safety effect for you. It does not change in any way, manner or form the way you behave towards your buddy, or how you plan your dive,...

I think what you mean is "it should not change in any way..." and I completely agree, but unfortunately it does in many cases. I see it frequently; recreational divers strapping on ponies and heading off into semi-solo dive situations....
 
Yep. Maybe a function of the area and the prevalence of quasi-techies here or the diver population with whom I have regular contact... but yes, I would say that 40s are more popular here by an order of magnitude.



Not sure what you mean. Primarily, one can make a good argument that once a dive has been conducted below 30 metres, a stop is less optional more "Best Practice" if not actually required. A gas emergency does not make any "decompression obligation" or "Best Practice" dissolve, therefore having sufficient gas to meet those needs -- emergency or not -- seems like good contingency planning.

Of course one could make an argument that in an emergency, a diver should shoot to the surface and get outta the water... but that kind of goes against everything I teach and write about.

If a diver becomes too freaked out by -- let's say a freeflow -- that she is unable to deploy her backup and execute a normal controlled ascent, she needs remedial training and does not belong below 30 metres... in my considered opinion, but others feel differently. By the same token, I believe that a dive below 30 metres requires the diver to carry a redundant gas source and regulator... again, your mileage may vary.




Which is why I write articles... teaching is about modifying behavior. In this case, my belief is that a having enough gas to ascend properly and the skillset to use that gas in a fashion that's prescribed by best practice, is the goal.

Life is not black and white, and frankly, any amount of back-up gas is better than none... but if someone is going to the bother of carrying a redundant gas source, why not make sure it is going to function in the most extreme circumstances on a pinnacle dive for the diver.

What I mean is that a diver has to balance safety versus convenience. I completely agree that the addition of a pony bottle can increase the safety of a diver, even at depths well less than 100 feet. I kinda demand that people who dive with me use one..

However, it seems as if you are arguing that everyone needs to buy a Volvo station wagon to drive over 50 mph, while I am perfectly happy with a corrolla and an air bag....

Having more air might make things easier, but (a 40 cu-ft bottle) is just too much trouble to get most people to even consider it. I see a lot more people using no pony bottle than people using 40 cu-ft bottles.

I've used a pony bottle for maybe 25 years and have had to use it once... On a solo dive a few years ago where I ran out of air at maybe 120 feet while chasing a wounded fish. Incredibly stupid. I was using a 6 cu-ft pony bottle and made a somewhat quick ascent from depth up to shallow and then once at 20 feet, I sipped my main tank for a long time and completed a safety stop with zero issues.

I think that if it is a choice of taking no pony bottle or a small one, the little bottle is a much better choice.

I think we need to acknowledge that most people will NEVER need the pony.
Most rec divers will probably NEVER go into deco.
The probablity that a diver will run out of air completely AND go into DECO AND will be delayed for 3 minutes on the bottom AND be unable to control their breathing rate to a manageable level (for 120 seconds) AND will feel the need to perform a 5 minute safety stop AND will have no air remaining in their main tank to help out on an ascent...... is.. pretty unlikley to occur simultaneously on the same dive.

For myself, for no-deco... I am perfectly willing to assume that I will begin my ascent the second it gets hard to breath from my tank. I am willing to assume that I will be able to add enough air to the BC, to allow me to gently float up and eliminate all kicking and exertion, I am willing to assume that I will be able to control my breathing rate for 2 minutes, I am willing to ascend at 60 feet per minute for the first 30 or 60 feet (depending on depth) and I am willing to forgo a safety stop at 20 feet if I run out..

And with all those assumptions, a 13 cu-ft bottle is a reasonable compromise; so is the new Corolla.
 
dumpsterDiver, if people read all of your posts (especially the one where your BC failed and you continued the dive) they would be less likely to take your advice. :)

Cheers,

Crush
 
dumpsterDiver, if people read all of your posts (especially the one where your BC failed and you continued the dive) they would be less likely to take your advice. :)

Cheers,

Crush

Is this supposed to be a personal attack? I've given you WAY better material than this, if you do a little research...Hell how's this...? I once did a night dive where i forgot my bc, so i did the whole dive with the tank under my arm...and still caught more lobster than my buddy who i lost 5 minutes into the dive.....:rofl3:
 
The size of the pony you're carrying is relevant to the decision whether to do away with the octo. If you follow Steve Lewis' advice and always carry a 40 cu ft pony, then yes skip the octo.

But if you do what most of us do and carry a 19 or a 13, then doing away with the octo creates a problem. Let say you and your buddy are deep and he runs out of air. He rushes towards you stressed and all you have now to share is the pony. You both ascend, you're breathing off your big tank and he from the small pony. With the stress of sharing air and controlling an ascent together there's a chance he empties the pony, and then what? The only plan B now is sharing one regulator. Not a great situation to be in.

So my advice if you are using a small pony, is to leave the octo on and use that for sharing air if necessary, and use the principle of Rock Bottom to have enough gas in the main tank for you and your buddy to make it up.

Now, with all due respect to Steve Lewis who teaches technical diving, I'm with Dumpster, that the 40 is too awkward for recreational diving. It's hard enough to ascend the ladder with a slung 19 or walk the stairs to do a shore dive lugging the 19, so the size of the pony tank is a compromise. The 19 is enough to get yourself up from 130 ft as long as you're not sharing air. My normal SAC is 0.6-0.7 cu ft/min, and stressed is 1 cu ft/ min. So let's take the stressed rate. If I have to use the pony I'm not spending 5 minutes pondering at 130 but I come up immediately, so I have two parts to add

1. 3 min safety stop at 15 ft: (15/33+1) * 3 mins * 1 cu ft/min = 4.4 cu ft

2. time to ascend =130/30 = 4.3 minutes average depth=65 ft
so air used to ascend= (65/33+1) * 4.3 min * 1 cu ft/min = 12.8 cu ft

so all I need to safely ascend is 4.4 + 12.8= 17.2 cu ft

and a 19 cu ft tank will do as long as I'm only using it to rescue myself. If I do shallow dive to 60 ft I take just a 13 cu ft, which is enough. If I have to rescue my buddy I hand him my octo. If during the ascent I see that the gas in the back tank is going to run out I'll switch to the pony and let the buddy continue to breathe from the octo.

Adam
 
The size of the pony you're carrying is relevant to the decision whether to do away with the octo. If you follow Steve Lewis' advice and always carry a 40 cu ft pony, then yes skip the octo.

But if you do what most of us do and carry a 19 or a 13, then doing away with the octo creates a problem. Let say you and your buddy are deep and he runs out of air. He rushes towards you stressed and all you have now to share is the pony. You both ascend, you're breathing off your big tank and he from the small pony. With the stress of sharing air and controlling an ascent together there's a chance he empties the pony, and then what? The only plan B now is sharing one regulator. Not a great situation to be in.

So my advice if you are using a small pony, is to leave the octo on and use that for sharing air if necessary, and use the principle of Rock Bottom to have enough gas in the main tank for you and your buddy to make it up.

Now, with all due respect to Steve Lewis who teaches technical diving, I'm with Dumpster, that the 40 is too awkward for recreational diving. It's hard enough to ascend the ladder with a slung 19 or walk the stairs to do a shore dive lugging the 19, so the size of the pony tank is a compromise. The 19 is enough to get yourself up from 130 ft as long as you're not sharing air. My normal SAC is 0.6-0.7 cu ft/min, and stressed is 1 cu ft/ min. So let's take the stressed rate. If I have to use the pony I'm not spending 5 minutes pondering at 130 but I come up immediately, so I have two parts to add

1. 3 min safety stop at 15 ft: (15/33+1) * 3 mins * 1 cu ft/min = 4.4 cu ft

2. time to ascend =130/30 = 4.3 minutes average depth=65 ft
so air used to ascend= (65/33+1) * 4.3 min * 1 cu ft/min = 12.8 cu ft

so all I need to safely ascend is 4.4 + 12.8= 17.2 cu ft

and a 19 cu ft tank will do as long as I'm only using it to rescue myself. If I do shallow dive to 60 ft I take just a 13 cu ft, which is enough. If I have to rescue my buddy I hand him my octo. If during the ascent I see that the gas in the back tank is going to run out I'll switch to the pony and let the buddy continue to breathe from the octo.

Adam


WELL... if you plan your buddy diving properly, you should always have enough gas in the main tank to get both you and your buddy to the surface... If you give him your primary, then there should be enough gas to get him to the surface... and you just breath the pony, we already know that is big enough to get you to the top....If you run low, you can always buddy breath on the safety stop RIGHT?
 

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