Prayer is useless?

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H2Andy:
whose Bible? let us for now discuss the New Testament

who decided which books went into the New Testament?

why were many books kept out of the New Testament?

why do you think so many people have so much vested in keeping the
New Testament as it is, and not considering any other sources, or how it came about?

to find the real Jesus, i had to step out of the box. the biggest box was
the one that said, "this is the official version. don't listen to anything else."

who are the scribes and pharisees of today? who are the corrupt temple
priests?

who hath ears to hear, let him hear

The way we got the New Testament (and the Old for that matter) is from a bishop in Constantinople who wrote a yearly letter to all the churches setting the dates for the holy celebrations. One year he included a list of books that he felt were the ones widely used and aknowledged as being divinely inspired. This is where our list of 66 books (39 in the old and 27 in the new).

The DaVinci Code is a book that plays on several old conspiracy theories and is probably where this is coming from. There are some who claim the Vatican took the Dead Sea Scrolls (an arcaeological dig that came up with some of the oldest written texts found - among shopping lists and other things were some copies of scripture) in order to keep the myth of Jesus alive. This is a myth and much scholarship has been done on these ancient texts.

The Catholic church includes a set of books that they consider nearly canonical (canonical is the term assigned to the 66 books in scripture, or the canon). This is the Apocrypha and they can be found in most Catholic Bibles. These books are books of history and some narratives of Jesus' childhood (stories like him making birds out of mud and blowing on them and they came to life). They are used in Christian scholarship to provide understanding of the Greek language through usage and often used to corraborate historical dates or biblical concepts not mentioned often in scripture.
 
H2Andy:
whose Bible? let us for now discuss the New Testament

who decided which books went into the New Testament?

why were many books kept out of the New Testament?

I really want out of this thread but I don't want be rude and just ignor you so I'll respond briefly...or as priefly as I can.

It's been a while so this is from memory...As I recall scriptures were examined for 3 characteristics...apostolic, prophetic...and what's the third?...inspired maybe? You probably already know so why ask?
why do you think so many people have so much vested in keeping the
New Testament as it is, and not considering any other sources, or how it came about?

Because so many people have a vested interest in changing it.
to find the real Jesus, i had to step out of the box. the biggest box was
the one that said, "this is the official version. don't listen to anything else."

Some of those, so called, scholars claim that Jesus never existed on one hand. On the other hand they call into question authorship of the text. If Jesus never existed there were no opostles. If he never existed why worry about which authors present the most correct account of his life? They seem very confused and I think their grasping at straws.

Satan is a deceiver and a master of disguise. He doesn't fool you with things that appear ugly or unbelievable to you. He offers you what you think you want and knows how to use your own pride, weaknesses and doubts. Maybe you found the real Jesus and maybe you've just been presented with one that he knew you'd be happy with. Of course, if you don't believe in God then it stands to reason that you wouldn't believe in Satan either.

who are the scribes and pharisees of today? who are the corrupt temple
priests?

I give up. Who?
who hath ears to hear, let him hear

...and the discernment to know what to hear.
 
MSilvia:
Where there are discrepencies between versions or translations, which version is the one authored by God (or those moved by Him)?

In the various translations typically used in Protastant churches the primary difference you'll find is in specific wording. Some translations are in the more commonly used language as it's used today and easier to read while others are a little harder to read like the King James version.

The really ambitious look to the greek writings (in the case of the NT) and do things like word studies...looking at the different places a given word is used and how it was translated. I know people who, when studying part of the Bible, will use several translations and whole rooms full of reference material and look for themselves at the difference in how things were translated. I think they do it mostly to increase their own understanding but if you started adding, deleting or really changing things they'd catch you.

If I'm inspired to write a new gospel (Matthew II?), and have a bible published that includes it, is that also the Word of God? How can you tell? Do you just take it on faith that every change that God has not interceeded to prevent has His implicit endorsement?

From www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/2CANONS.HTM...a piece written from a Catholic perspective but it might answer your question in part. There are lots of other articles you could dig up and read.

A clip from it...
3. The Key To Canonicity

How do we know which books belong in the Bible? The early Church's answer was: Those books which are apostolic belong in the canon of scripture. If a book had been handed down by the apostles as scripture (like the books of the Old Testament) of if it was written by one of the apostles or their associates (like the books of the New Testament), it belonged in the Bible. Apostolicity was thus the test for canonicity.

Protestant early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly writes:

"Unless a book could be shown to come from the pen of an apostle, or at least to have the authority of an apostle behind it, it was peremptorily rejected, however edifying or popular with the faithful it might be" <(Early Christian Doctrines,> 60).

But how could one know which books were apostolic? Certainly not by a book's claim to be apostolic, since there were many false gospels and epistles circulating under the names of apostles. Neither did the Holy Spirit promise a revelation to each individual Christian of what books belonged in the Bible. But how was the test for apostolicity carried out in the early Church? Basically, there were two tests, both of them involving tradition.

First, those books were reckoned as apostolic which agreed with the teachings the apostles handed on to the Church. Gnostic scriptures and other writings which did not agree with the apostolic tradition were rejected out of hand. This is something Evangelical scholars admit.

Protestant scripture scholar F. F. Bruce writes that,

"[The early Fathers] had recourse to the criterion of orthodoxy.... This appeal to the testimony of the churches of apostolic foundation was developed especially by Irenaeus.... When previously unknown Gospels or Acts began to circulate... the most important question to ask about any one of them was: What does it teach about the person and work of Christ? Does it maintain the apostolic witness to him...?" <(The Canon of Scripture,> 260).

Second, those books were regarded as apostolic which were preached in the various churches as being from the pen of an apostle or the associate of an apostle—not just its doctrines, but the book itself. If a given work was not regarded as apostolic and was not preached as such in the churches, then it was rejected. This was also an appeal to tradition because it looked to the tradition of the churches as a guide for apostolicity. If the tradition of the Churches did not recognize a book as apostolic, it was not canonized.
 
MikeFerrara:
and the discernment to know what to hear.

hey, you're happy with the answers you have, who am i to say?

just trying to point out a different reading.
 
00scuba:
ahhhh..I knew the catch 22 would work for that...how convenient!

Is that how "it was his will" or "that was in his plan" when tragedy strikes works? So people with terminal cancer, victims of violence, horrific weather related deaths, children dying, those malnurished and sick etc..... just need to be comforted by knowing it was all in his works.

It's that free will thing. Man is the cause of man's pain.
 
Take a look at this story..it doesnt get much worse.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0601110254jan11,1,6054312.story?coll=chi-news-hed

For those who can't get to it:

Funeral protest ban is pushed
Downstate legislator set to introduce bill

By Charles Sheehan
Tribune staff reporter
Published January 11, 2006


Angered by a religious group's demonstrations at scores of military funerals, a state lawmaker said he will soon introduce a bill to make such protests illegal in Illinois.

Legislation to be sponsored by Rep. Brandon Phelps (D-Norris City) would make Illinois the fifth state to introduce such a bill in response to protests by members of Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan.

Members of the church, led by Rev. Fred Phelps, who is not related to Brandon Phelps, have picketed dozens of funerals for soldiers killed overseas.

Followers of the church, mostly family members of Fred Phelps, say the killings of American soldiers by improvised explosive devices are a manifestation of God's wrath over homosexuality in the United States.

Church members have picketed at least six funerals for Illinois soldiers, Lt. Gov. Pat Quinn said Tuesday.

The proposed Let Them Rest in Peace Act in Illinois would keep protesters 300 feet away from funerals and memorial services for 30 minutes before and after the ceremony.

The state bills raise sticky constitutional questions that legal experts say could rise into the highest levels of the U.S. judicial system.

A law already exists in Kansas, and on Tuesday a panel in Indiana endorsed legislation that would make disorderly conduct a felony within 500 feet of funerals or memorial services.

In August, church members at the funeral of Army Staff Sgt. Jeremy Doyle, an Indianapolis native killed in Iraq, held signs that read, "Thank God for dead soldiers."

The proposed bill in Illinois does not mention the Westboro Church by name, though Quinn acknowledges it was the catalyst.

Phelps sponsored the bill after attending a funeral in Anna, Ill., for Army Spec. Brian Romines, who was killed by a bomb in Baghdad. Church members arrived in Anna for the June 18 funeral and passed out fliers saying Romines was sent to Iraq "where God killed him with an IED."

On Sunday, the group plans to picket a memorial service for 12 West Virginia miners who died after a mine blast. That explosion, too, was God's retaliation for homosexuality, said Shirley Phelps-Roper, Phelps' daughter and a church attorney.

Soldiers' families remain the primary targets.

Soldiers "have been raised on a big lie that being gay is OK," Phelps-Roper said Tuesday. "This is a nation of idolatry that is run rampant with adultery and fornication."

She has vowed to fight any law barring protests.

Legal battle lines likely will be drawn over whether laws are "content-based" or "content-neutral," said David Hudson Jr., a research attorney for the First Amendment Center at Vanderbilt University.

If a law is considered to be content-based, meaning it favors one opinion over another, it is subject to the highest form of judicial review, he said.

"Strict scrutiny leaves few survivors, and since these laws seem to be targeting a particular subject matter, they seem to be content-specific," Hudson said. "The kicker is that even if something is content-based, it doesn't necessarily mean it's unconstitutional, it just means the government has to advance a government-based interest in a very narrow way."

Richard Fallon, professor of constitutional law at Harvard University, said it would be very difficult for courts to uphold such laws and said any legislation must be "narrowly tailored to promote a compelling governmental interest."

"The government could have a compelling interest in stopping speech on the basis of content, because these funerals are a particularly raw emotional time for friends and relatives. That may outweigh the value of free speech under normal circumstances," he said. "If this speech was specifically designed to exacerbate wounds, that could be the key."

That is exactly what Quinn says is happening at funerals in Illinois and elsewhere.

"It's an effort by a hate group to heckle, harass and cancel out the right of the mourners, the family, to exercise their 1st Amendment rights of expression, religion and assembly," he said.

----------

csheehan@tribune.com

Copyright &#169; 2006, Chicago Tribune
 
Fred Phelps is a quack. Just as in any sector, there are always "bad eggs." To see how ignorant (ignorant means: Destitute of knowledge; uninstructed or uninformed; untaught; unenlightened) he is, go to his website:

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/

He is not what a person would describe as being in a "normal" state of mind. He is ignorant and is a disgrace to Christianity.

All I have to say about that ignorant man.
 

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