Prerequisites for levels of cave training

[scubafool]

This might be a useful discussion to those who are thinking of taking an overhead class.

This question has a few different segments. Mainly I am interested in the instructor's viewpoint, but other answers could be useful, so don't be bashful. Although a list of the various agency requirments are welcomed, please also include your personal thoughts.

For the various levels of cave training (Cavern, Intro to Cave, Apprentice, Full, & if GUE, Cave 1-3) what are the prequisites, what should a student have skill, attitude, and equipment wise, before the class? What are the more common shortfalls that you see? What is THE most common or worst shortfall that you see?

 

[do it easy]

I'm curious to know what people, especially instructors, think of taking cave classes back to back, or sequentially. Will instructors do this? Under what circumstances? Or do they prefer to have some experience dives inbetween.

I know full trimix can be done in a week, but I always thought that cave classes were taken in smaller steps.

 

[karstdvr]

What are the more common shortfalls that you see? What is THE most common or worst shortfall that you see?

You ask a good question. I'm not an instructor,but I have been cave diving for 13 years,and there is one big shortfall I see in several levels of cave diving-that is experience. I commonly see people get their cavern training,which I commend them for,but after a year expires and no dives,they want to pursue intro because they feel enough time has elapsed between classes. This also applies for intro divers making the jump to full cave. I have heard the agencies toy with the idea of required number of dives before being allowed to move upto another level,or demonstration of proficiency.

 

[GDI]

This might be a useful discussion to those who are thinking of taking an overhead class.

This question has a few different segments. Mainly I am interested in the instructor's viewpoint, but other answers could be useful, so don't be bashful. Although a list of the various agency requirments are welcomed, please also include your personal thoughts.

For the various levels of cave training (Cavern, Intro to Cave, Apprentice, Full, & if GUE, Cave 1-3) what are the prequisites, what should a student have skill, attitude, and equipment wise, before the class? What are the more common shortfalls that you see? What is THE most common or worst shortfall that you see?

I'm curious to know what people, especially instructors, think of taking cave classes back to back, or sequentially. Will instructors do this? Under what circumstances? Or do they prefer to have some experience dives inbetween.

I know full trimix can be done in a week, but I always thought that cave classes were taken in smaller steps.

These are some good questions, very good questions in fact. Aside from the agencies prerequisites there are many varibles that a instructor uses to determine if a student is ready or not to under go any level of cave training. These varibles are subject to the standards of the agency and the instructor's own gut feeling. This can vary from person to person.

I cannot vouch for the agencies that I do not teach for.

Starting at the Cavern level the student needs to be at least 15 years (TDI) and 16 (NACD) with parental consent and in some cases a signed letter by the Training Director. The student needs to demonstrate a mature responsible attitude and have a good base of skills and be comfortable performing them without any hesitation. They should have a few extra dives logged since their basic class, at least 25 or so but this is not required for all agencies. They must hold a OW cert, it is not required that they are AOW and in some instances I prefer they are not as this has only indicated bad habits resulting from some uneducated instruction re-enforcing those bad habits. They must understand that although a agency states the minimum to complete training that this is only a minimum and that if they are in a rush then they are not suitable to complete cavern training. This last point is a industry concern that goes hand in hand with our fast I want it now life styles. My point of view is that there is no sense in rushing to your death.
Equipment wise Cavern is not all that big a deal by the standards. As long as the student has two lights, a safety reel and a primary reel, no snorkel and a standard reg configuration, I think they should also have personal markers. My preference is that they start using doubles at this level be it back mounted or sidemount and be able to deploy and restow their equipment if used. I also believe to have a back up spool/reel to your safety reel and a second cutting tool.
The student needs to not just understand what the cert standardsand limits are but they should be able to match gas, calculate turn time and psi. Cavern is a NDL dive. They need to be able to think logically to resolve an emergency not just perform skill sets. Any skill they would perform in the OW should be able to be repeated in the overhead with no anxiety.

Intro-to Cave: The prerequisit is of course to have a Cavern Cert. Since many agencies teach cavern classes the instructor needs to evaluate the student's skill and knowledge levels, their attitude towards cave conservation and safety. I expect a higher level of skill proficiency and awareness at this level then at Cavern. I have no problem teaching a Cavern/Intro class together. The skills of gas matching and calculating turn time and psi and Distance need to be worked. The Intro dive is also a NDL dive. I see to many times that Intro students have no idea of their time status because they were only taught to focus on their gas supply. The dive can be turned as a result of gas limits, or time limits for NDL or if deco is possible then turned by distance. (As you learn a cave system you will penetrate further and further- distance. Distance is time and time is gas and if you go into deco then gas becomes even more important). The skills that a Intro diver learns is really to enhance their cavern skills and to develop better awareness of the cave system. The skill set should be the same just a lot of repetition. Equipment wise the diver is to have a H or Y valve at the minimum with two regs one on a long hose. Again I think doubles are better.. the diver will also need to have three lights, a canister light is best as the primary.

Between the Intro and Apprentice level the student should look at taking a Adv Nitrox/Deco Procedures class this class will help them out towrds the full cave training. In fact they can take this class before cavern as another recommended option. In full cave training you will be discussing deco in a limited amount. The skill sets will help with the task loading of taking stage bottles into a cave environment and better preping you for the possibility of deco dives.

The Apprentice and Full Cave both require you to have Intro cert unless taught as part of a full cave module class. The Apprentice is a tempory cert lasting only for up to a year. The logic hear is to have the student fine tune their skills and cave awareness. Doubles are required here and it is recommended that you have a O2 stage bottle because highly possible you will hit small deco obligations. Of course you need to add the addition of jump/gap reels

Cave just add the same but the student should be smooooooth

 

[scubafool]

I'm curious to know what people, especially instructors, think of taking cave classes back to back, or sequentially. Will instructors do this? Under what circumstances? Or do they prefer to have some experience dives inbetween.

I know full trimix can be done in a week, but I always thought that cave classes were taken in smaller steps.

Well, I am about to violate the rule laid out in your signature line, but hey.

If the basic OW skills are well in hand before the class, I tend to think that for some people, Cavern & Intro is a doable combination. Similarily, if I understand the course content correctly, Apprentice & Full could also be successfully combined. I know that some have successfully completed all 4 levels one on top of the other, but I wonder, considering the amount of material that is covered in these classes, if the retention level is as high. Note that my opinion is not based on a vast amount of experience, but is just that, my opinion.

My personal choice is to advance one level at a time, with much diving in between. Then again, I live close to some of the world's best cave diving and have ready access to some of the world's best cave instructors, so my viewpoint is probably affected by that fact.

 

[Mark Vlahos]

I did the Cavern thru Full Cave route in a single block of two weeks with a three or four day break in the middle, although I stayed in the area for the full two weeks. GDI, already having posted a message in this thread was my instructor. Prior to beginning the training I already had advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures along with some time in doubles.

The primary reason for me to do the entire course at one time was logistics, my schedule is extremely unpredictable and I had the time and the money so I jumped at the opportunity. I agree with the position that prior decompression training is a really good idea. Familiarity with all of the gear and the principles of gas planning gave me a considerable advantage.

Having accumulated all of the instruction that I have does not mean that I need to dive at the full level that the card in my wallet says I can. I choose for now to dive conservatively. I am happy to dive with Intro divers and limit my gas. The no complex navigation rule is also one I quite happily limit myself to for now. Experience is best gained over time and I readily make the choice to take it slow and earn the advances in practical experience. Would I be willing to make a dive at the full cave level, yes, but I would consider my buddy very carefully. Thirds combined with complex navigation in a system I am not familiar with and a new unfamiliar buddy would not be a situation I would look forward to; but make that same dive in a system that I do have experience in on a circuit or traverse that I have done before with a buddy that I have seen in the water, and who has seen me in the water, then yes I would be willing to do it. It is about the little choices adding up to make the big ones.

The certification agencies can only give you the tools to make the dive, you gain experience dealing with problems and your instructor observes your reactions and makes a decision on passing you based on their judgement. You still need to be willing to take it slow and continue to learn with each and every dive, including the dives you decide not to make.

Mark Vlahos

 

[karstdvr]

The certification agencies can only give you the tools to make the dive, you gain experience dealing with problems and your instructor observes your reactions and makes a decision on passing you based on their judgement. You still need to be willing to take it slow and continue to learn with each and every dive, including the dives you decide not to make.

Great comment. Sometimes I think the wreck diving philosophy of progressive penetration applies to cave diving,especially when we are in the gaining experience mode. The one thing I've always found true is you can never go too slow and you can never have too much air.