Private vs. Public Dive Teams

[akscubainst]

Greetings:

We had a drowning here in Juneau yesterday and I think it's going to cause a general uproar around town as most of the residents are not aware that we do not have a dive team of any sort.

What happened is that a guy apparently stripped down and dove into the water off the docks along the waterfront. PD was nearby and threw him a life ring and he refused it. USCG staff we walking the waterfront and one of them went into the water in street clothes trying to get him to take the life ring. He swam away and drowned. It seems apparent that he didn't want to be rescued but since this was on the waterfront and since they had to fly a dive team into town to handle the recovery there's some uproar here.

So here's our history, up until summer of 2000 the city had a team. They rarely got called out, but the team existed. I was a vol ff and was on the team from 1999 to its end in 2000.

I own a dive shop and at that time we had 2 shops in Juneau. The guy who owned the other shop got with the fire chief and arranged to have the team equipment donated to a non-profit that he had formed to replace the city's team. Somehow, he convinced the assembly to give him all of the dive gear.

His team was quasi active up until about 2003 when it all fell apart. We've had nothing now for about 5 years.

So the out of town team is on site right now and IMO should be done by now but they aren't familiar with the area they are operating in like I am, so it's not unreasonable that they are still out there.

So, now we see what happens. The FD has a strategic plan and under it's Dive category they have it listed as "Not Mandated/Not Done"

I have the resources to collect a group of qualified divers to for a private team but don't have the funding for equipment or training nor the time to manage such a thing. I am also in what I consider a conflicting spot to own a dive shop and hypothetically run a dive team that would generally be expected to buy equipment from me.

Thoughts?

Thanks

Dave

 

[dittrimd]

It is an interesting question with unique circumstances. Not sure if I have a direct answer but I will offer a few comments (OK those who know me it may be more than a few comments with just one or two digressions).

Talking with my Dad who was one of the original divers on our team when it formed back in the 1970's it was a similar event that motivated our town to fund a dive team.

An intoxicated water skier was dropped off near shore at dusk/almost dark. The boat operator (also intoxicated) thought he had made it to shore and drove in. Come to find out he had not made it back to shore and he was now missing. My Dad was an officer in our FD at the time and responded to the call. After several days of dragging the lake with grapple hooks and still no body they decided to contact a local dive shop. At the time the state police were the only PSD's in the state but they had been diving nonstop on another call and could not support the team. The LDS sent two divers over and in a matter of hours they had recovered the badly lacerated and eviscerated body of the water skier.

Interesting side note the investigating police officer's camera was broken so my Dad used his to photo graph the body on the tarp. He still has the black and whites.

Anyway one of our Town Council members was so upset how long it took to retrieve the body that she went to the town council and had them ask the fire chief what it would take to put a dive team together. A few months late the gear was on order and the training was scheduled.

Here you can see a photo of the charter members of the Coventry Fire Department Dive team (later to be part of the Tolland County Mutual Aid Dive Team) The woman on the left is the town council member responsible, the other guy in plain clothes was the fire chief and my dad is third diver in from the left.

A few other towns near us had similar situations and from these small department dive teams sprang our regional county dive team.

Nowadays with all the liabilities and litigious nature of our society a fire chief or incident commander would be risking his career if he used private divers for any type of public safety operation. I would suspect that you might have a hard time finding non-PSD's to do such work in the conditions we operate in.

It is my opinion that any dive team engaged in PSD must be coordinated and funded from the local authorities be it Fire, Police or some other emergency organization for many reasons. Liability, severe safety hazards, span of control the list could go on and on. I am not dismissing the heartfelt desire of people willing to offer up their time and talents to help out. I cannot emphasize just how much risk is involved in any type of emergency operation.

Coordination/organization is not the biggest problem it is the funding. Funding for PSD's whether it be a paid or volunteer organization face the same challenges. Fire and police departments are struggling to meet their most basic needs and for most of us my guess is that diving is not the busiest aspect of our public safety careers. I had the sad misfortune to speak the dive commander from Gloucester, Ma last year as he had the awful task of selling off all the assets of his dive team which was no longer being funded by their town. There have been several discussion on this board about how difficult it is to find good funding stream. If I were going to look at starting a team I would get a conceptual view of how the team might be structured then look at costs and funding before I went anywhere with it.

Hope maybe some of this helps.

Good Luck!

Mark D.

 

[Papa_Bear]

It all depends if you want divers or Public employees who dive? Sometimes a big difference! I will always choose divers! You don't need no stinking badges! Besides blue lights don't do well in zero viz! It's all about training and more training as well as divers who dive! I know of Public employees who get on the team to learn to dive or to meet a quota and not for the right reasons! I think a blend is always best and it doesn't take as much money to fund divers who have their own equipment! Government has a way of making things more complicated and expensive than needed!

 

[mavdog]

Its called "AHJ" Authority Having Jurisdiction. Be you private or public the governing body of the municipality has the overall responsablitity for operations. I personaly doubt that they would be willing to take on the liability of a group of well meaning divers.

 

[Hallmac]

Dave,

This might come out negative, please understand that it is not meant to be.

One drowning in five years, and from your post, that appears to be intentional, really does not justify an uproar, nor does it justify a fully funded team.

With that said, have you tried thinking about it from a different point of view.

You own a dive shop and have the ability to band together a few divers. That means you have the connections to make something work. Not everything in this world has to make you money to be an asset to the business, there are times when losing money creates a better platform for wealth and prosperity.

How many customers do you really believe you would lose if you had to shut the doors for a day to do a recovery? A simple sign on the door stating closed for emergency recovery would keep the interest don't you think?

What would it do for your community reputation? What would prospective students think if they knew your shop did all the recoveries for the community. Would they pay for the training just to have a chance to say they were a volunteer on the team? Heck a couple of paying volunteer wanabees can pay for a full training session for the whole team, that is, if making a profit is not your primary goal.

Why do you feel it necessary for the equipment be purchased from you? Could it be purchased directly from the manufactures with your assistance? What about used equipment? Donated items? Again, is profit necessary?

If it is so important to the community why not have a block party and accept donations and volunteers for the community's team and it's formation. 12 people handling one task a piece is easier than doing it all yourself. Make it a permanent, non-profit, volunteer team(club) for recovery of human remains only, that belongs to the community and not your dive shop.

There is way to much to discuss in this forum under one post, however, I see it as a chance to expand and protect your business indirectly, an opportunity to be an asset to your community, an opportunity to increase your personal skills and image, and not a loss or a burden.

Hall

 

[covediver]

The municipality of Anchorage PD has a civilian reserve unit (not the right words, but you get the concept) that helps out with terrestrial search and rescue and then we have the excellent mountain search and rescue teams as well. Would it be possible either through the Juneau-Douglas borough or the city to have a civilian safety diver function? I am thinking of a program similar to that run by the Ventura County Sheriff's Office in California which has a volunteer search and rescue dive team

Ventura County Sheriff's Department

 

[Hallmac]

The municipality of Anchorage PD has a civilian reserve unit (not the right words, but you get the concept) that helps out with terrestrial search and rescue and then we have the excellent mountain search and rescue teams as well. Would it be possible either through the Juneau-Douglas borough or the city to have a civilian safety diver function? I am thinking of a program similar to that run by the Ventura County Sheriff's Office in California which has a volunteer search and rescue dive team

Ventura County Sheriff's Department

The only issue with that is liability, with any connection to the PD/FD an attorney could try and go after the city with a civil suit if a volunteer was injured or worse. Some family member would sue the city, always do. As an independent, non affiliated, non-profit, organization Aunt Rita and Cousin Guber, don't have a deep pocket for the ambulance chasers, thus the enticement to try and rebut the release of Liability.

 

[akscubainst]

Thank everyone,

Here's what eventually happened, the PSD team that came to town did not have any luck. So the Troopers called us. We took a boat towed camera out and working off the last seen point and the place where the search dog hit we found him in about 20 minutes in 80'. FYI, the dog was very close.

We went down and made the recovery at the Troopers request.

BTW, All the real SAR teams around here are Non-profits This includes Juneau Mountain Rescue and the Dog Team. They are volunteer except the State picks up their expenses.

The FD does do the Ice, swiftwater and rope on the road system.

Dave

 

[NudeDiver]

I think that if "a community" wants something, it should be willing to pay for it. To me, putting your money where your mouth is, is always the bottom line. If it is not willing to pay, it has no right to complain.

That said - there are plenty of volunteer fire and rescue departments that seem to operate without any big problems. How is a volunteer dive s&r team any different? It just seems like that if one can operate fine, so can the other.

Lastly - and I know this is going to sound pretty cold - but I've never really understood the big deal about recovering dead bodies. I mean, if the guy has a real chance to be alive, that's one thing - go out and look for him. But when you know the guy is dead - then, really, what's the point? I know people will talk about "closure" and "know what really happened" and so forth - but I just don't buy it or get the whole appeal about having the body. Furthermore, if someone really wants to have the body, then dammit, they should be willing to pay for the search to go out and find it. Hell, I know when I went for a ride in a city ambulance, I got a bill for $400 - despite the fact that right on my home tax invoice from the city, there is a big line item for fire & rescue service. Nevertheless, I had to pay for the ambulance ride. That being the case, it make sense to me that if someone really wants my lifeless and useless body that badly, they should be willing to pay for someone to go out and find it.

 

[akscubainst]

Having this guys sister tell me "thank you" was all I needed. I do alot of commercial work but this was purely volunteer.