Problem at Gilboa 4/21

[Ber Rabbit]

I think there should be momentum from this that would encourage Mike to ask instructors to use the area past the tubes for AOW training, and subsequently for other OW divers to build experience in this area rather than plunging over the wall or doing a sneak dive:

• There is a hard bottom to work with, with a gentle slope.
• There is still lot's of light so that it doesn't seem as mentally oppressive to a newer diver.
• The instructor has a nice opportunity to evaluate the AOW student having to swim there and back. Using the 70ft platform at the deep end doesn't allow any swimming evaluation, but rather how well they can hold on to the upline.

Perhaps instructors here on SB that use Gilboa for AOW or deep OW dives should consider encouraging Mike to take steps to get instructors to use the area past the tubes. Maybe even sign a petition or something to that effect as a show of support. Mike takes allot of flack from some very rude instructors when he tries to make recommendations like this unilaterally.

The first AOW class I taught was going to be my very first time on the deep side of the quarry. I filled out the deep side paperwork and Mike asked what my dive plan was and we had a long conversation since it was going to be my first time over there. I told him I intended to take my students to the tubes then go as far as I needed to in order to register an 80 foot dive on my student's gauges. I let him know that for some reason their gauges would read as much as 10 feet deeper than mine so our actual depth would be between 70 and 73 feet. He said he would prefer it if I took them in at the deep platform because if something happened they would be close to shore plus we had the benefit of an ascent line. He also told me he wanted me to carry a pony, something I had never done before. One of my students happened to have one so we affixed it to my tank and I had the students get their gear together above the deep dock. We had a couple of unusual incidents while preparing for the dive and my "bad ju-ju" alert kept going off so I bagged the dive before we ever got dressed. The next day we tried again but this time Mike said the original plan to go to the tubes and turn would be ok but he still wanted me to wear the pony even though I had zero experience with one and the thought of wearing a new piece of equipment while watching students on a deep dive was incredibly stressful. We dressed and I entered with the first group and we headed out toward the tubes, my "bad ju-ju" alert was screaming before we got there and I bagged the dive for myself and told the students they could continue their dive but to keep it to 60 feet, they are certified divers after all. That class ended up doing an extra weekend at White Star to get the deep dive in, the class already consisted of 4 weekends of diving with the deep dive being the culmination.

BTW, I've taken some flack from people who felt I was doing my students a disservice by "only" having them do an 80 foot dive in their advanced class even though the university regulators are not environmentally sealed and my options for deep sites are limited. Keep in mind that my students have already done 7-9 dives in the advanced class with me before we even consider the deep dive.
Ber

 

[jon m]

don't know if this has been asked,
say i have afree flow on primary reg, if i switch to octopus,crimp hp hose(bend it over) can't i stop the free flow? also vice versa?
i know the hose might be damaged, but i could ascend, yes?
thanks!

 

[M_Bipartitus]

You may be able to atempt this if the faliure is in the second stage, but it is likely a faliure in the first stage, so if you were to susessfully block the primary hose by crimping it (unlikely), you would blow out the octo by overpresurizing it.

 

[Dan Gibson]

An ascent line could easily be placed at the end of the tubes. The location is actually pretty close to shore (not the actual docks), but I'm not positive his property has room to clear a path from above. Access is certainly a reasonable concern.

When I weigh pros and cons, I'm with Bob, the deep side is just a bounce dive for most classes and that really doesn't show any skill. Our shop uses the tubes and swims out to them. We usually have them swim midwater above the construction site so they can stay out of the really cold water on the way there any back. This tests there diving skills more IMO.

He said he would prefer it if I took them in at the deep platform because if something happened they would be close to shore plus we had the benefit of an ascent line.

 

[Meister481]

Is there any more info on the accident, such as reg type, etc. The gear used would be helpful just to know if the regs were environmentally sealed. Was there a Deep Dive Plan given to Mike?

I sat with 2 instructors yesterday and we spoke about the accident and what they could do as instructors to better prepare students for cold deep dives (gear and training). We discussed free flow alternate exchanges and free flow ascents in a pool as an option. I would think this might better prepare a student for what could occur, but I doubt they would become proficient without regular practice.

Once again it comes back to personal responsibility and making prudent choices as a responsible diver. These divers made a choice to go out just like every one of us does, they knew there were risks and decided to dive.

Mike runs a great operation, I absolutely love to go there and dive. It's one of the best midwest quarries for vis, but since all this has occured some students are squemish to go there to train for deep diving. This costs Mike money and instead of taking 10 people to Gilboa we are heading to Haigh- a spot with much less vis, a 250 yard swim to the hole and 10' deeper than the platform of Gilboa. Quite a conundrum we have here.

 

[Dan Gibson]

Funny you should mention environmentally sealed regs. For many people, that could be a must have to prevent freeflows. I have been over the wall many times, but my regs are not environmentally sealed by any measure. I use SP piston firsts (in particular MK20s and MK25s) and have never had any issues when the temps were in the upper 30s. IMO technique has a lot more to do with it then the actual gear as long as it's in working order.

IIRC, reports indicate they filed a modified plan after Mike went over their plan.

Is there any more info on the accident, such as reg type, etc. The gear used would be helpful just to know if the regs were environmentally sealed. Was there a Deep Dive Plan given to Mike?

 

[do it easy]

Funny you should mention environmentally sealed regs. For many people, that could be a must have to prevent freeflows. I have been over the wall many times, but my regs are not environmentally sealed by any measure. I use SP piston firsts (in particular MK20s and MK25s) and have never had any issues when the temps were in the upper 30s. IMO technique has a lot more to do with it then the actual gear as long as it's in working order.

IIRC, reports indicate they filed a modified plan after Mike went over their plan.

I agree with this- I think good technique will prevent a lot more problems than equipment can solve.

 

[Doubles]

I agree with this- I think good technique will prevent a lot more problems than equipment can solve.

Good technique is a wonderful thing, and would be a great compliment to the proper equipment. Suggesting that good technique allows the use of improper equipment is the wrong message IMHO.

-s

 

[Ber Rabbit]

Funny you should mention environmentally sealed regs. For many people, that could be a must have to prevent freeflows. I have been over the wall many times, but my regs are not environmentally sealed by any measure. I use SP piston firsts (in particular MK20s and MK25s) and have never had any issues when the temps were in the upper 30s. IMO technique has a lot more to do with it then the actual gear as long as it's in working order.

My husband and I were discussing the accident and he said the very same thing. The university took students on cold deep dives for years without environmentally sealed regulators. His main point was calm, relaxed divers don't overbreathe their regulators.

When I weigh pros and cons, I'm with Bob, the deep side is just a bounce dive for most classes and that really doesn't show any skill. Our shop uses the tubes and swims out to them. We usually have them swim midwater above the construction site so they can stay out of the really cold water on the way there any back. This tests there diving skills more IMO.

My advanced classes that I have taken to the deep platform did not do what I would call a bounce dive. We descended to the platform and did a buddy check and comfort evaluation. We then descended to 90 feet and swam to the corner by the trailer, turned around and ascended to 75 feet or so for the return swim. We passed the platform and went to the other corner then returned to the platform and ascended.

A dive buddy takes his classes to the tubes then descends slowly along the road to their planned depth, usually about 100 feet. They swim along the wall to the corner near the deep platform then ascend up the wall and back across the shallows to the dock by the plane.

My open water students go to the tubes and get 60 feet on at least one dive. If they aren't comfortable with that then they get additional dives before being certified. Personally I think every OW diver who is trained in this area should be comfortable planning and executing a 60 foot dive in 42 degree water (temp I usually on the tube's thermometer).
Ber

 

[Dan Gibson]

Apparently you care how your students are prepared more than many instructors. On another list, one of the former local guys at Gilboa (Kevin Jones) mentioned something I thought was really on the mark. It was something along the lines of instructors need to teach their students to be dive leaders, no followers. It's good to see others believe this as well.

My first deep dive at Gilboa was off the old spinning platform. The trailer was still around 80-90 ft and one could truly make this a dive with skiils. Unfortunately many just go down, open a lock while kneeling on the huge platform (if they actually hit it) and then come right back up. Yes the people get to see slowed reaction times, but not much else.

My husband and I were discussing the accident and he said the very same thing. The university took students on cold deep dives for years without environmentally sealed regulators. His main point was calm, relaxed divers don't overbreathe their regulators.



My advanced classes that I have taken to the deep platform did not do what I would call a bounce dive. We descended to the platform and did a buddy check and comfort evaluation. We then descended to 90 feet and swam to the corner by the trailer, turned around and ascended to 75 feet or so for the return swim. We passed the platform and went to the other corner then returned to the platform and ascended.

A dive buddy takes his classes to the tubes then descends slowly along the road to their planned depth, usually about 100 feet. They swim along the wall to the corner near the deep platform then ascend up the wall and back across the shallows to the dock by the plane.

My open water students go to the tubes and get 60 feet on at least one dive. If they aren't comfortable with that then they get additional dives before being certified. Personally I think every OW diver who is trained in this area should be comfortable planning and executing a 60 foot dive in 42 degree water (temp I usually on the tube's thermometer).
Ber