Problem with my Pioneer 27# wing

[raxafarian]

the 7ft hose lies directly on your body.... nonissue for being a 'dangly'

The paddle console doesn't exist with this config... the spg is clipped off on the left hip d-ring... rest of gauges are on your wrists.


What do you do with all the excess straps/etc. on your bc? That was one of my biggest complaints... all the extra padding, material, straps, etc. There are no straps dangling with the bp... Plus, take a bc and dunk it in a rinse tank.. pull it out and see how heavy it is with all the excess water it is holding until it can drain away. Do the same with a bp and watch all the water drain away in about 3 seconds.

my lift bag tucks into the storage pack on the bp. my light clips on the shoulder d-ring and is kept from swinging about by a piece of rubber innertube. Don't have a canister light, but they are basically under your shoulder... out of the slipstream. Everything else is clipped in a pocket.

This system works. Please try it so you can understand it.
Spectre said in another post (after trying different configs with his bp... no bungeed backup, etc)... "I hate when you guys are right" lol.

I think you said you'll be able to try the bp again soon? Hopefully things will become clearer. If not, then I guess this discussion will end.

 

[Uncle Pug]

SeaJay once bubbled...
Should I have instead called them "manufactured" vs. "assembled?"


I don't get it...


and I'm still all ears.

Seajay.... you are not all ears... you are all keyboard.

You are not asking questions... you are pontificating & arguing.

You don't get it? No kidding! You don't listen... and you don't have the experience base to make an informed judgement because you have never tried this stuff.

Manufactured vs. Assembled? Where do you get this glop?!?

If you want a manufactured BP/Harness/Wing fully set up and ready to go buy it that way from a Halcyon dealer.

But the rig is so simple that much of it can be assembled by a novice with off the shelf components, mail order plates and a manufactured wing.

The rig is so streamlined that the difference is immeadiately apparent to anyone who tries one... as shown by decreased resistence when finning and/or extended distance traveled with a scooter.

The rig is so safe and reliable that it can be used for the most agressive dives and equipment loads... and that safety is not diminished when used in recreation settings... though perhaps not a compelling feature over and above the safety provided by basic BCs.... (unlike the excessively adorned *Tech* wannabe BCs that sport a multitude of d-rings, snaps, buckles, bungees, pockets and cells.)

Until you try one it would be better to just ask real (read sincere) questions... that way you won't have so much glop to retract when and if you do.

 

[JamesK]

Uncle,

I think you are wasting your breath.

 

[Uncle Pug]

...James.

But then I remember Scuba466...

And then there are all the others who are reading this thread...

 

[MikeFerrara]

SeaJay,
For every argument there is a counter argument. Some of this stuff may not seem clear enough in debate. Many of us did not start out with the gear we use today. We migrated to it by replacing what didn't work many times. We grew into it. Believe what you want. Use what you want. Some things must be felt to be understood. Go find a mentor to dive with. If you wish to dive like that person a good place to start is to use similar equipment. When it's all said and done, if your happy with the result then you have done the right stuff.

 

[SeaJay]

You guys won't believe this, but I actually had a dream that I checked this thread this morning and found that someone had written back to me, "I can't believe you said what you said... I can't believe you talked to them that way!"

Sheesh. Now I'm even dreaming about it. Can you believe that? I think I'm taking this board a little too seriously. :lol:

raxafarian once bubbled...
What do you do with all the excess straps/etc. on your bc? That was one of my biggest complaints... all the extra padding, material, straps, etc. There are no straps dangling with the bp...

Hmmmm... I haven't had that problem, particularly if the right size is chosen. But hey, if they really bothered you, then you could always trim them off and burn the ends of the straps to prevent them from fraying. In that regard, they're no different from the webbing on a bp/wing setup. You do it with that rig, why couldn't you do it with a manufactured BCD? It's also interesting to note that even the most "technical" manufactured BC only has three points of adjustment, and therefore only three to six strap ends, depending on design. It's not like it's a ton... And it's not like they can't be clipped off like you would with a bp/wing setup. It's also interesting to note that the Scubapro Classic that I liked so much only had two strap ends... One at the belt-like cummerbund, and one at the chest strap. Either could be clipped if you wanted them to be.

The rinse-and-watch-it-drain test shows little more than the amount of fabric involved in the rig. If you were using a backplate pad (which many people do) your results between the two would be much more similar. Yet, nobody here has had the idea that backplate pads are horrible... In fact, people who dive tropical in skins or less say that they appreciate the covering to prevent the bp from being too hot or too cold to put on against bare skin... And that the pad is a little nice when you're not wearing neoprene. And all divers appreciate the pad's little pocket which holds a lift bag or whatever. Nobody's said that their backplate pad is horrible. Why would it be on a manufactured BCD?

This system works. Please try it so you can understand it.
Spectre said in another post (after trying different configs with his bp... no bungeed backup, etc)... "I hate when you guys are right" lol.

Man, I would like nothing more. Only one person on a mailing list that I belong to responded, though (not one on this board) in reference to being able to show me their bp/wing setup... So it's been a real problem trying to get a singles bp/wing setup to even try.

But I'm checking out some other avenues, and I promise to give a complete report as soon as I can.

It would be a complete godsend if I found that it worked best. Up to this point, I've been mildly pleased with what I've found in the realm of BC's... Some better than others, but none that really sweep me off my feet. My favorites so far are the Transpac II and the Scubapro Classic, each of which accomplished the same thing through different means. Both setups had their issues.

I think you said you'll be able to try the bp again soon? Hopefully things will become clearer. If not, then I guess this discussion will end.

Yeah. It was supposed to be Thursday (tomorrow) but the guy who promised me some help won't be back now from his dive trip until Monday (he extended it), so I'm SOL until at least Monday. I'll keep y'all posted.

 

[SeaJay]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...

Seajay.... you are not all ears... you are all keyboard.

Okay, okay... I'm shutting up now. Funny, though. "All keyboard." Lol...

You are not asking questions... you are pontificating & arguing.

Okay, chilling now.

You don't get it? No kidding! You don't listen... and you don't have the experience base to make an informed judgement because you have never tried this stuff.

Okay, point taken. I'll post again when I get the opportunity to try this stuff out (again. Remember, I've already spent some time in one.)

Until you try one it would be better to just ask real (read sincere) questions... that way you won't have so much glop to retract when and if you do.

Okay, now... Be nice.

My questions ARE sincere. But I'm shutting up now, k? And I sincerely would like nothing more than to retract "glop."

 

[raxafarian]

SeaJay once bubbled...
The rinse-and-watch-it-drain test shows little more than the amount of fabric involved in the rig. If you were using a backplate pad (which many people do) your results between the two would be much more similar. Yet, nobody here has had the idea that backplate pads are horrible...

ummm.... I did mention I have the storage pak (bp pad). it doesn't change anything either way... The point I was making with the rinse thing is why do I want all that extra weight of the water while exiting ... onto a boat or shore.

It's obvious we can't convince you, and there's no way you're convincing us of anything. Please let us know how you make out with a properly adjusted bp... If you still feel the same way... fine, enjoy diving with whatever works for you.

 

[Mverick]

You seem to know an awful lot about these other BC's and how well they fit. So I'm thinking you're a troll.

With how many you said you've tried you'd of had to try 2 on each dive.

I've explained in great detail the pluses and minuses of gear. And I don't like to hold peoples hand and physicly show them. That's what a good dive shop is for. And I said GOOD DIVE SHOP.

We've more than explained the positives and negatives. And you keep nit picking. Go buy a nice orange BC collar. Then you'll have something to pick on. But it won't scratch your tank.

And as you keep refering to Homebuilt. Halcyon comes to you set up in the package. Ready to dive. You have to adjust there BC just like any other you buy. So it isn't homebuilt. And there wings aren't homebuilt either. They are made of a stronger cover material than MOST commercial BC's. I bought one just because of the better pricing I could get for the total package. And you don't have to customize. It's a great package as it comes. But try customizing the ScubaPro classic and cutting the thing up to fit you just right. Then when somebody else that's a different size than you wants to try it. I don't think you can just buy new strapping for it.

And I use a weight belt. I don't use integrated weights. So I don't have the dive rite pockets or anything else hanging in front of me bothering the flow of water over my frontal region. My lift bag is stowed between my backplate and my back. Spool in a pocket on my leg. I DO use a Wireless computer so I don't have the gauge hanging off, and one gauge isn't a huge drag. And I use a bunjee'd second. Try breathing out of one of those Air2 seconds on a decompression stop while your buddy has your reg and is about 22in from you. It sucks. And if he freaks out on you, he's in range to grab you. With a 5-7ft second when he gets close you can swim away. And yes, I can yank it out of his mouth. And before I die. He'll die.

And about how tight and smooth those jacket BC's fit. Well there's a lot of extra material in the front. And if they fit nice and tight when you air it up it's gonna squeeze you. But some are good for certain things. Just not what I want. And I said I.

It seems like you want a sports car to be a Bentley. Well, you can't get both. A Bently will always have more creature comforts than a turbo Porsche. But No Bently will keep up with a Turbo Porsche. And it also means there's more to go wrong. Comparing Sportbikes to Harleys isn't the way to compare things either. Comparing Harley's to the new Harley wannabe's is.

And we've answered all your questions. The new questions you're coming up with. Are the same as your OLD questions. They've already been explain'd.

 

[SeaJay]

Mverick once bubbled...
You seem to know an awful lot about these other BC's and how well they fit. So I'm thinking you're a troll.

You've got to be kidding. Dude, do you have any idea how much time and effort I've put into understanding and deciding between styles? You can bet your valuable parts that I know an awful lot about these other BC's and how well they fit. I've tried on and used like a dozen different ones in my past 20 dives. Deciding on this one piece of equipment is more than just deciding on a BCD... It's about deciding on an entire dive philosophy. This purchase could have me, in two years, diving the Andrea Doria or it could point me in the direction of, "diving's too much of a pain in the neck to bother with any more."

It's important... Not even to touch on the fact that this is LIFE SUPPORT equipment. Yeah, it's a little important.

So yeah, I know a lot about this topic... But still have not used the bp/wings under any kind of correct environment. I can tell you that I've dived with a single AL80 once with a rig that I put together myself... Probably wrongly. It was the most uncomfortable thing I'd used up to that point. My second bp/wing setup was with a pair of steel 95's in freshwater and with a 3/2 mil. I was completely overweighted, and it took quite a bit of concentration just to stay horizontal. So my point is that I've really yet to do this right... And so I'm working on doing a third bp/wing dive to see if I can find the "right" rig. Not only is the rig going to cost me half a grand (or more,) but my life depends on it, and it may make or break my future in diving. I'm not messin' around with this... I'm gettin' educated on them. So yeah, I know a lot about them.

It's got nothing to do with a troll.

With how many you said you've tried you'd of had to try 2 on each dive.

21 dives now, and I've had on about a dozen different setups. I've found that some gear is good, some is bad, and some just plain stinks. I'm not finding the majority (or the minority) opinion to mean squat to me in my personal situation. I'm finding that they all do their job to a certain degree. I'm finding that as a diver, I'm already good enough to cope with just about any peice of equipment you can throw at me. I'm finding that less is more. And I'm finding that people who say they know what they are talking about don't always... And that many times the quiet ones sitting in the corner are the most knowlegable... At least they know enough not to even involve themselves in the debate.

I've explained in great detail the pluses and minuses of gear. And I don't like to hold peoples hand and physicly show them. That's what a good dive shop is for. And I said GOOD DIVE SHOP.

Let's see... In 21 dives, I've had dealings with:

Ginine Springs Dive Shop
Diver's Discount (huge place off of I-95 in FLA)
Charleston Scuba
One place in Tennessee that I can't even remember the name
Several online shops
Three dive shops in Savannah
One "independent" dealer
and one shop in Hilton Head.

Oh yeah... There were two that I dealt with regularly years ago when I was just into freediving. And of course, I've had some dealings with several online sources as well.

I've only been certified since May.

I AM dealing with good dive shops. By sheer numbers, I'm bound to find a couple in that list up there.

Look, I can see from your response that you feel that I somehow personally attacked your gear configuration... I don't know why that is, but I believe that there's more going on here than I know... So I'm bowing out. I'm not looking for a flame, and I'm not looking for a troll. I was just kickin' stuff around, and I've only "kicked around" my personal experiences and my personal questions and those things that other, more experienced divers have told me. That's all I have, as the newbie. I've got 21 dives in three months, have developed fairly good bouyancy, and have learned a lot from both other, more experienced divers and from trial and error. I've dived something like a dozen different rigs so far, and have dealt with many dive shops over the years... At least seven or eight over the past three months, and countless over the past few years (I've always been into various watersports.)

So I'll gather more info on the topic... Try more systems out... And see what happens from there. I'm not attacking you personal gear configuration... I'm trying to get more info so I can buy my own.