PSA for those doing vacation Guided Boat Dives

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Ana, I think getting on a boat where the operator has told you he requires that people dive in buddy pairs (and therefore, anyone ELSE booking the boat expects to dive as a buddy) and then informing your instabuddy that you intend to execute what amounts to a solo dive, is very inconsiderate. I would be completely nonplussed by having someone tell me that, and I would politely excuse myself and go to the representative of the dive op and pitch a fit. Not every diver has the backbone I have; less experienced people may well blink and agree, on the assumption that this is common behavior, which it is NOT. (Now, whether your agreed-upon buddy, once in the water, behaves in any way differently from what you do, is another question.)

I don't want to brake rules of the board but I can reply to this question all day long, at least for this week until I go out of town again.

Maybe I'm not so clear communicating, would you like to read post #44 from gcarter ? that post describes the answer quite clear. Also this reply is not related to the OP and has the potential to be edited to maintain the "green zone" status of the forum, but here goes my response.

If I agree to dive with a particular charter is because they either allow me to dive solo, or they just want to assign me a buddy on paper. As in we will not be buddies but for their records, for whatever reasons they do not show that they do solo dives. So there is no backbone required, I do give a heads up to this person before getting underway to be sure everyone is cool about it.
 
Whereupon they'll find another freelance divemaster.

I would think that would be their choice, just as it is the Dive Ops choice for having the rules in question.

Personally, being as inexperienced as I am, I follow my training and the rules given to me by the people leading the dive. If I feel my safety is at risk because of said rules, only then will I question them. Otherwise, I would have to assume that there is a good reason for the rules, and I would follow them, just as I would if I were a guest in someone's home.

All points aside, if someone thumbs a dive, it's over with no questions asked. If you come to find out that the dive was thumbed for a reason you don't agree with it, like many have said before, you handle it on the boat or on dry land, not in the water.
 
Divermike: If they signed up for a guided dive, I agree that you do that the DM says because that is what you signed up for period. If they signed up to dive their own profile and it is the boats policy to gave a DM in the water, then you kind of ripped them off in this situation.IMO. I'm not sure which is the case.

This is exactly the reason I stay away from guided dives and really don't cars if there is a DM even on the boat. I consider myself a competent diver and self/buddy-sufficient, depending on what the need it. Tell me what the site conditions are and dump me out, then pick me up when I'm done. I don't like swimming back to the boat either. You either have a long surface swim or half of a dive. Both suck.

I guess my point is, sign up for the boat that will provide the service you want.
 
Whereupon they'll find another freelance divemaster.

If you have the strength of your convictions, you would be ready to move on anyway. I left a job on principle once, would do again, and the issue I was unwilling to bend on didn't involve anyones life or safety.
 
Oh the irony... In posts in other spots on this board and in many face to face discussions with other dive pros I've strongly defended the rights of customers who aren't complete muppets to dive their own profiles. In this particular case I'm not sure if my boss told these customers if they were going on a guided dive when he booked them. When I got them I was informed by him, and much more emphatically by the boat's crew, that they needed to on a guided dive.

Look I'm not saying I handled this perfectly, and I'm not saying that guided dives are a good solution -- I hate them more then most, especially if I get stuck leading them. I 100% understand those of you who feel frustrated by guided dives and DM imposed limits -- I feel equally frustrated when I'm diving for pleasure and I am faced with the same choices: do a less then ideal dive following rules or dive some other day in a manner of my choosing.

I think that in this case, while I am certinaly going to approach it in a different manner next time, I handled it well and the customers choosing to blow off a signal to thumb the dive where in the wrong. You don't have to agree. This thread continues to generate such strong debate because clearly people on all sides are passionate about it. That's a good thing!

Dive Safe!

Michael
 
Oh the irony... In posts in other spots on this board and in many face to face discussions with other dive pros I've strongly defended the rights of customers who aren't complete muppets to dive their own profiles. In this particular case I'm not sure if my boss told these customers if they were going on a guided dive when he booked them. When I got them I was informed by him, and much more emphatically by the boat's crew, that they needed to on a guided dive.

Look I'm not saying I handled this perfectly, and I'm not saying that guided dives are a good solution -- I hate them more then most, especially if I get stuck leading them. I 100% understand those of you who feel frustrated by guided dives and DM imposed limits -- I feel equally frustrated when I'm diving for pleasure and I am faced with the same choices: do a less then ideal dive following rules or dive some other day in a manner of my choosing.

I think that in this case, while I am certinaly going to approach it in a different manner next time, I handled it well and the customers choosing to blow off a signal to thumb the dive where in the wrong. You don't have to agree. This thread continues to generate such strong debate because clearly people on all sides are passionate about it. That's a good thing!

Dive Safe!

Michael

I don't think you are really seeing much in the way of disagreement with that. It's the side trips the conversation is taking that is causing the debate.

Cheers
 
Mike, I think you handled it just fine.

There are a lot of generalizations being thrown about group diving, signing waivers and such. In Hawaii, it's almost a local standard that dives are guided. There's no actual law, but everyone does it, and come lawsuit time if someone hurts themselves on a charter it's gonna come up. There was a case on Oahu 5-6 years or so ago where someone died, it was a guided dive, with a guide to customer ratio that was within accepted standards, all the appropriate waivers were signed, there was nothing apparently wrong with the equipment or way the dive was run, and a Coast Guard employee took the stand and said that in thier opinion, if there were more supervisors in the water with the deceased individual that fatality might not have occurred. End of case, the dive agency recommended settling immediately, the equipment manufacturers and the dive company settled out... and the Coast Guard is supposed to be the authority over boating activities, not diving.

People who feel they have special needs, including solo diving, no insta-buddies, how the gear is handled, etc, should inquire about how the dives are run before signing up. Group diving can be perfectly fine, even for experienced divers, if everyone plays by the same rules. In Hawaii, there are companies that will drop off divers off at the boat as they run low on air, not as the first person runs low on air, all's one has to do is find them. In my experience it's not the new divers that ruins dives for others as often as the divers who consider themselves so experienced that they don't need to play well with others that ruins more dives for everyone (I've had more people with hundreds to a thousand or more dives who's dives have been ruined by divers with 50-200 dives with an attitude than by newer divers). Sometimes all a guide can do is try to impart how they run the dive and hope the customers go along.

Most operators are pretty up front about how they run thier dives. If one signs up with them they should go by how the operator runs their dives and chalk it up to a lesson learned and not return if it turns out they aren't doing it the way the customer wants. Usually a few simple questions up front by the customer can avoid most misunderstandings.
 
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I was informed by him, and much more emphatically by the boat's crew, that they needed to on a guided dive.

It certainly sounds as if those staff who had previously dealt with the customers were aware of their short-comings.

The 'textbook' solution to this is requirement for a scuba-review.

Admittedly, commercial pressures running a dive operation make it hard to 'insist' that sub-quality divers undertake remedial training; but that is where a commitment to quality and safety come into the equation. Not just to the customers, but also for fellow divers and the staff themselves.

How a dive operation approach this, and how they communicate those suggestions to a customer, are what make all the difference.
 
Way back in the early 90's, I had some trouble when I wanted to just get on a charter boat off of palm Beach, with some friends....All I knew was Franks, which was the opposite ( a "hunter/killer boat")..Franks was less than idea to take a girl friend on, or most friends, so I ended up booking some dives on various boats, and was shocked and horrified by the restrictions, and overall poor levels of diving with guides controlling everything....This I could not tolerate, but the solution was not to be mad at the boat....I had to go around, literrally to every dive boat in the area, and talk to captain or crew about how they ran their dives, and how would they handle divers with my interests and experience. I ended up finding several, and NEVER had the problem again...

The problem had never been the boat's problem, it had been mine, for not being an "educated consumer", so to speak :)

Plenty of 6 packs liked to do trips like I wanted them, and a couple of the bigger 20 passenger boats as well...you just have to find the right personality in a captain..someone that really does not like having students or new divers on their boat...when I found this, I shared it with all of my diving friends.
 
I think that in this case, while I am certinaly going to approach it in a different manner next time, I handled it well and the customers choosing to blow off a signal to thumb the dive where in the wrong.

If you're my buddy and you thumb the dive, we go up.

If you're not my buddy and you thumb the dive, I wave goodbye and wish you and your buddy a safe trip to the surface.

Why would you want to end my dive anyway? I'm not low on air and am presumably having a nice dive. Who are you to decide that it's time for me and my buddy to surface when nothing is wrong?

flots.
 

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