Question about “balanced rigs” and having all ballast unditchable

[Eric Sedletzky]

A balanced rig is a system that allows you to swim up to the surface in the case of a failed wing and at the end of your dive, hold your decompression stop at 3m with nearly empty tanks.

Again, to me this is just properly weighted, provided that you have an empty aircell at the end of your dive with near empty tank (singular) at your 3 meter stop (this is the Basic forum and we are talking about recreation no deco, non technical diving).
This has nothing to do with balancing a rig, but it has everything to do with balancing your overall weighting, everything considered.

 

[johndiver999]

And please don’t tell me that nobody ever removes their rig at depth, because they do. If you never need to remove your rig at depth then you’re not diving in a location where it happens. They teach this around here for kelp entanglements.

I was taught that you should never need to remove your rig at depth.

This was told to me by my instructor who has over 4000 dives and has dived all over the world.

I’m not trying to be rude but how would you get a kelp entanglement? You shouldn’t be swimming near kelp or marine life....

I think you should think for yourself and not accept everything your instructor told you.

Maybe you should never have to remove the scuba unit at depth, but you should also NEVER loose your buddy, run low on air, get lost underwater or fail to completely check your gear before every dive, you should never get entangled in anything underwater and you should never dive past your capabilities and you should never dive with someone who kicks up the bottom and ruins the visibility and allows you to get something tangled in your tank valve, you should never be alone and have a tank cam band open up or fail... and on and on and on.

Being unable to remove and replace a scuba unit underwater would be a huge vulnerability in my mind.

 

[EireDiver606]

I think you should think for yourself and not accept everything your instructor told you.

1. You don’t know who this instructor is.

2. I don’t accept everything every instructor has told me. Definitely not.

3. From a logical point of view, why would you ever, ever, ever remove your rig and separate it from you underwater? It’s a cool skill to practice but it’s unnecessary.

Is that not the whole idea of the continuous webbing harness with the backplate/wing setups ie to not separate yourself from the only thing keeping you alive underwater?

Edit: I’m not trying to be rude or insult you so excuse my if you get the wrong impression. This is contrary to what I was taught by a very very qualified individual.

 

[lowviz]

It depends on size and pressure for the doubles?

Yes, and staying completely within NDL limits, they are still a problem in cold water diving that is common here. Usually in the 40's-50's F on the bottom. So I add lead to my belt and thus get some loft in my undergarments. Let's say 8 pounds (8 pints of air) for that. Doubles can easily hold over ten pounds of air, so I need to cover most of that too for a problem at the beginning of the dive. That gives me an 18 pound W/B right out of the gate.

Balanced (to me) means that I can swim my rig up or make a controlled buoyant ascent at any point in the dive with a dead rig. Dropping my W/B underwater after I've used most of my gas is a problem, now I'm too buoyant.

There is a sweet spot between being too negative or positive (at any point in the dive) that is much easier to hit if you are diving something like an AL80 in warm water.

 

[EireDiver606]

Again, to me this is just properly weighted, provided that you have an empty aircell at the end of your dive with near empty tank (singular) at your 3 meter stop (this is the Basic forum and we are talking about recreation no deco, non technical diving).
This has nothing to do with balancing a rig, but it has everything to do with balancing your overall weighting, everything considered.

You’re in a catch 22 right here.

A Balanced Rig involves proper weighting. Proper weighting is a balanced rig as with proper weighting you should be able to swim to the surface in needed and at the end of a dive, with nearly empty tanks, hold a deco stop.

Deco stop - Safety stop, same idea.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I think you should think for yourself and not accept everything your instructor told you.

Maybe you should never have to remove the scuba unit at depth, but you should also NEVER loose your buddy, run low on air, get lost underwater or fail to completely check your gear before every dive, you should never get entangled in anything underwater and you should never dive past your capabilities and you should never dive with someone who kicks up the bottom and ruins the visibility and allows you to get something tangled in your tank valve, you should never be alone and have a tank cam band open up or fail... and on and on and on.

Being unable to remove and replace a scuba unit underwater would be a huge vulnerability in my mind.

Like I said earlier, we were taught in PADI OW to R&R a BC unit at the surface and in theory at depth, for a multitude of reasons, probably the biggest being an entanglement. Maybe PADI classes are tailored to be more regional than other agencies, IDK, but I was quite happy with my training and thought it was quite thorough (for our area).
This was and is still a required skill AFAIK. It is my opinion that having all weights integrated onto the scuba unit whether ditchable or not can severely complicate this skill.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

"You should never have to remove your rig underwater ..." -- GUE instructors

"You need to be able to remove your cylinders by flipping them off over your head." George Irvine, WKPP Project Director

This DIR stuff is so confusing.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

You’re in a catch 22 right here.

A Balanced Rig involves proper weighting. Proper weighting is a balanced rig as with proper weighting you should be able to swim to the surface in needed and at the end of a dive, with nearly empty tanks, hold a deco stop.

Deco stop - Safety stop, same idea.

Do you have any ditchable ballast on you when you dive?

 

[boulderjohn]

Like I said earlier, we were taught in PADI OW to R&R a BC unit at the surface and in theory at depth, for a multitude of reasons, probably the biggest being an entanglement. Maybe PADI classes are tailored to be more regional than other agencies, IDK, but I was quite happy with my training and thought it was quite thorough (for our area).
This was and is still a required skill AFAIK. It is my opinion that having all weights integrated onto the scuba unit whether ditchable or not can severely complicate this skill.

The two skills are required in OW training for all members of the WRSTC. In the United States, the following agencies are members: IANTD, NAUI, PADI, PDIC, RAID, SDI, SNSI, and SSI. I am going to guess that those agencies together account for more than 99% of OW instruction in the United States.

 

[johndiver999]

1. You don’t know who this instructor is.

2. I don’t accept everything every instructor has told me. Definitely not.

3. From a logical point of view, why would you ever, ever, ever remove your rig and separate it from you underwater? It’s a cool skill to practice but it’s unnecessary.

Is that not the whole idea of the continuous webbing harness with the backplate/wing setups ie to not separate yourself from the only thing keeping you alive underwater?

Edit: I’m not trying to be rude or insult you so excuse my if you get the wrong impression. This is contrary to what I was taught by a very very qualified individual.

The idea of continuous webbing is simplicity and elimination of a potential failure point - not to preclude a diver from removal of the unit.

I provided numerous examples of exactly when and why removal would be beneficial, yet you ask the same question about why?