Questions for Instructors

[Popeye]

Tavi once bubbled...
Hi,

How many of you teach with the long hose and a bungied back-up??
How many teach wearing BP and Wings??

I assist in classes in a LH/BP/W. In OW I give a short explanation of what it is, and what I percieve to be the advantages, and how I airshare. My LDS sells Halcyon and DR, so the equipment is available. I don't go into DIR because I'm not. If anyone wants to try it, I let them. My rig generates a lot of discussion after class.


The instructor wears a BC.

 

[Lead_carrier]

I use regular "recreational" setups, (regular hoses, bcs) because I don't want to overload anyone from the start. Most of my students are doing it for recreation and I feel it is my place to make the the safest recreational diver possible. I usually show everyone bp, wings, long hoses, etc just to show a totally different type of gear and give a brief explanation about the type of diving it is for. If anyone seems to have the interest in getting into technical diving I talk to them give them a better understanding of the differences in gear.

As for running into the different configurations on dive boats, I've found that many, not all, tech divers don't want to mess with us rec divers. A cute story about that. I had finally decided to get a new bc, reg, etc. and got on a charter with a friend. One diver had a few "under the breath" comments about allowing newbies out on such an advanced dive. After the captain quitely chatted with him about my having a lot more experience than the "mouth" did, he kinda sat off by himself sorta red faced for a while until we aggravated him so much he had to come out and join us.

 

[wetlettuce]

Hi

I try to have two students at once, both using club gear which is standard jacket BC, reg plus octopus etc.

I still use my BP/Wing and Long Hose. I don't find that it confuses them because they are willing to learn and therefore understand quicker. They do the exercises on each other as well as me and therefore (hopefully) will see the benefits of my kit over theirs so they don't go off and buy the first thing the dive shop tells them (which is what I did when I first started!)

If you want your students to benefit from your experience then you must lead by example !!

IMHO

WetLettuce

 

[GUEdiver]

I would like to teach DIR rigs with students right out of the gate in confined water, but neither I nor our shop can afford to buy enough rigs for it. So as of now, I teach in the pool with a traditional set-up (me and the students), and of course that leads to the students using a traditional rig for OW cert dives.

However, when in the open water, I do wear my DIR rig, and I explain it to the students prior to the first dive. And of course this is when a lot of them are thinking about equipment purchases, so they have the benefit of seeing both set-ups.

It's not perfectly the way I want it, but for now, this is what I can do.

I should mention that apart from the equipment, I also stress the key philosophical points of diving DIR, which are IMO more important that just gear rigging: solid team approach to diving, thorough planning and safety, strong buoyancy control, clean trim, healthy conditioning, eating right, etc.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I understand the cost of replacing student equipment. However in the long run using back plates is cheaper. If you intend to have classes of six you only need six rigs. With traditional bc's you might need 20 to have equipment that fits the six students. The size advantage combine with the usual rental discount actually makes it a far more cost efficient.

And...nothing (well almost) will ever get me to dive with a bc.

 

[ckharlan66]

GUEdiver,

I am glad you found this thread. I was talking about you in my post above and I was going to direct you over here if you didn't find it.

Mike,

I agree but the up front cost to switch is a bear.

Chad

 

[Popeye]

GUEdiver once bubbled...
I would like to teach DIR rigs with students right out of the gate in confined water, but neither I nor our shop can afford to buy enough rigs for it. So as of now, I teach in the pool with a traditional set-up (me and the students), and of course that leads to the students using a traditional rig for OW cert dives.

GUE,

Do you think it could be an issue to train students in gear they will probably never use again?

On a global scale, the chances of a tourist diver seeing a rental BP/W set up are pretty slim, and it's my impression that the majority of students don't make a major gear purchase during OW.

Think of a diver being a month or two out of class, and doing a dive in an unfamiliar -type- of gear while on vacation.

Isn't that a safety issue?

What would be the actual "big picture" advantage of training students in a backplate?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...


GUE,

Do you think it could be an issue to train students in gear they will probably never use again?

On a global scale, the chances of a tourist diver seeing a rental BP/W set up are pretty slim, and it's my impression that the majority of students don't make a major gear purchase during OW.

Think of a diver being a month or two out of class, and doing a dive in an unfamiliar -type- of gear while on vacation.

Isn't that a safety issue?

What would be the actual "big picture" advantage of training students in a backplate?

Many resort rentals are ill fitting. They often provide no way of securing alt. or gauges. I have even had report of divers not being given depth auges (just follow the DM. Should we teach that way?

No matter what I put a diver in what they rent in the Caribbean will likely be different. One of the major ills of diving rental gear is you are always in unfamiliar stuff. My student pay me to teach them to dive. I attempt to train divers not just underwater tourists.

The actual "big picture" advantage of training students in a BP/wing is that it is easier for them to get balanced and trim. When one can stay horizontal without fighting all other skills are easier to master. The harness holds the tank securely without having it flop all over giving the student something else to fight. The entire rig is more streamline aiding in developing correct technique with less drag to fight and again promotes proper position.

The immediate advantage my students notice (due in part to the equipment) is that they hang relaxed and motionless at their safety stop watching the other classes wallow in the mud while they try to do theirs.

If vacationing divers were better versed both in diving skills and equipment they would no longer accept much of the junk that goes on at resorts.

BTW, I don't have OW students do penetration dives at 100 ft to preparare them for the dive the resort DM is likely to lead them on either. I tell them not to do it. I handle the dangling gauges and stuff the same way. I tell them not to use it.

 

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Many resort rentals are ill fitting. They often provide no way of securing alt. or gauges. I have even had report of divers not being given depth auges (just follow the DM. Should we teach that way?

Does this have anything to do with my point, or is it a bad Monday?

What does teaching OW in a BC have to do with securing gauges in Bonaire?

And how would a BP/W in OW prepare them for that situation any better?

And if you choose to teach your students to dive without an depth gauge, that's up to you.

I wouldn't get caught at it, though.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
No matter what I put a diver in what they rent in the Caribbean will likely be different. One of the major ills of diving rental gear is you are always in unfamiliar stuff. My student pay me to teach them to dive. I attempt to train divers not just underwater tourists.

Then they should have absolutely no problem fitting themselves with rental gear.

If they can't don and adjust gear, maybe you should attempt to train your divers a little harder.

Of course, it would be easier if they had trained in that gear, but your students haven't.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
The actual "big picture" advantage of training students in a BP/wing is that it is easier for them to get balanced and trim. When one can stay horizontal without fighting all other skills are easier to master. The harness holds the tank securely without having it flop all over giving the student something else to fight. The entire rig is more streamline aiding in developing correct technique with less drag to fight and again promotes proper position.

The immediate advantage my students notice (due in part to the equipment) is that they hang relaxed and motionless at their safety stop watching the other classes wallow in the mud while they try to do theirs.

You make my point for me. They do just fine in class, with the advantage of superior (in my opinion) gear, then what happens when they're in unfamiliar gear, as inexperienced new divers, without this advantage or you to help them?

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
If vacationing divers were better versed both in diving skills and equipment they would no longer accept much of the junk that goes on at resorts.

BTW, I don't have OW students do penetration dives at 100 ft to preparare them for the dive the resort DM is likely to lead them on either. I tell them not to do it. I handle the dangling gauges and stuff the same way. I tell them not to use it.

At this point you seem to be ranting.

Your answers were circular and facetious.

I ask again, what is the "big picture" advantage to training OW students in a backplate?

We see it makes your class easier to pass, but what advantage does it give to average divers for the average diving world?

 

[MikeFerrara]

ok, yes I was rantin.
The advantage is that it works really well. after trying both they don't want to go back to the bc.

The principals I teach for adjusting balance to obtain correct trim will work with any equipment it will just take a little more effort. Learning this process better prepares one to dive regardless of equipment. A BP lends itself well to the process. As I see it is too many aren't tought the theory.

I have tought many students this way and they seem more successfull for it. None have reported problems when diving in other parts of the world. Well some have trouble finding rental equipment that allows them to do anything other than add or subtract weight from a belt to adjust balance.

How do your students do?
Have you tried teaching with a plate as well as a bc?
How do you teach trim?
How were you tought trim?

I have and even if I am unable to quantify the benefits well in writting the results have been fantastic.