Received my new Mares reg, 1st stage is heavy! How does Ti compare?

[scubafanatic]

Port plugs, both HP and LP, take a 5/32" allen wrench. Unless for some reason the mares plugs are different.

I'm surprised you think the 1st stage is particularly heavy. Didn't you handle a regulator during your OW class? It probably was not much lighter than the one you have now.

Considering you add weight to sink while diving, I would not be too concerned about the weight of your 1st stage. Titanium regulators are for people with too much money on their hands...go ahead, rich divers, flame me.

I've noticed differences in the size allen wrench that different manufacturers require to be used in their HP and LP port plugs, so I have a small set of different sized allen wrenches in my save-a-dive kit.

 

[halocline]

The bigger difference with TI is that it makes the chrome/brass pitting/corrosion problem unlikely. Most people who post negatively about TI don't get that. Not to alarm you but internal brass parts also corrode during normal use unless properly maintained.

The last time I had my service done - after 2 years - the Atomic tech said the only reason he changed everything was because he had it apart already. And I'm not exactly what you'd call diligent on post-dive cleaning.


2nd stage weight matters more as the heavier stages can lead to more jaw fatigue. That's where TI/Poly makes a difference.

No offense, but chrome plated brass is QUITE resistant to corrosion; I have several 20-30 year old regulators with essentially zero corrosion. When your atomic tech was talking about changing things on the annual service, he was talking about o-rings and plastic seats, not any metal parts. So this has nothing to do with any difference between Ti and brass.

2nd stages these days are 90% plastic, which is much lighter than Ti. Further, when in use, 2nd stages are immersed in water yet filled with air, meaning that their "weight" is meaningless for jaw fatigue. Jaw fatigue is caused by poor mouthpiece design and/or hose length problems, or even just tension in the diver's jaw.

So a 2nd stage with Ti parts as opposed to brass/chrome parts will have zero effect on jaw fatigue.

Titanium regs are simply yet another high priced solution-in-search-of-a-problem by a dive gear industry interested in selling more stuff. You can't blame them, that's why they're in business, and there's certainly no disputing that atomic regs, both the brass and Ti, are very nice regulators. But to say that somehow Ti regs offer a real world improvement in performance that's anywhere close to commensurate with the added cost is just silly.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I agree,
Corrosion on chrome plated brass 1st stages is a non-issue. The titanium/jaw fatigue arguement makes no sense, the only titanium part on the titanium second stages is the trim ring. It's pretty funny to hear people "claim" they get less jaw fatigue when using the titanium equipped 2nd stage. There is no way you could feel the difference between the stainless trim piece vs. the titanium one.
my wife has an old Poseidon Cyclon reg that's around 40 years old, there are no issues with corrosion on that 1st stage.
There's no practical reason to manufacture a 1st stage out of titanium other than manufactures want to use and market the material. Which is fine if you just want something made from an exotic material, I'm just saying that there isn't a practical reason to select titanium for that application. There's no practical reason to have a lighter weight 1st stage.
If you really believed that there was, you'd be asking manufactures to made a titanium tank valve as well.

-Mitch

 

[diversteve]

Granted I'm echoing the company line here but:

Atomic Titanium alloy gives divers superior corrosion-resistance and is able to survive 300 years in sea water without showing a hint of corrosion

I don't think brass internal parts have the same corrosion resistance. With proper maintenance it's probably a moot point but brass will corrode over time if not maintained properly - titanium won't. When having the inspection done, having TI components eliminates the need to ever have a corroded brass alternative replaced. Whether that was part of the tech's rationale behind what he said or not I can't say.

Given that the T2 2nd is mostly plastic - if the metal parts are made of heavier brass vs. lighter titanium - I think you'll have to agree that there is a slight reduction in jaw fatigue using the lighter material. It also stands to reason that the Atomic Z2 2nds with brass components are slightly heavier - Atomic doesn't list 2nd stage weight separately in their model comparison chart so I can't confirm that.

Plus if you read the OP, johnny bought a metal 2nd. I have to believe the TI/plastic T2/B2 2nd is lighter.

Is it noticeable? - probably not - but that's not primarily why I bought the 2nd - I wanted the swivel - which does reduce jaw fatigue. And actually we agree on this point:

That's where TI/Poly makes a difference.

the only titanium part on the titanium second stages is the trim ring.

Sorry, but that's just not correct:

Patented Atomic “Seat Saving” Orifice (Titanium)

Titanium Valve Body (T2x/B2/ST1)

The foundation of any regulator second stage is the valve body, and nobody manufactures this crucial component to be as exacting and durable as Atomic. We machine our valve body from Ti-6 Al-4v solid Titanium on our very precise Swiss CNC machines. Because it ís Titanium, it ís very lightweight, and will last forever without showing a hint of corrosion (see the comparison photo on page 4). Performance of Titanium parts will never be altered by the effects of sea water.

Titanium Demand Lever

The demand lever is the mechanical link to your breathing air supply. If it fails, air delivery stops. Because our demand lever is formed from a propriety Titanium alloy, our lever is immune from stress-induced fatigue or corrosion and breakage.

Plus after I read this, I knew I had to have one since it's likely the closest to a Ferrari as I'll ever get...

“This sleek looking super breather is the Ferrari of regulators...”
Scuba Diving magazine
2005 Best New Breathers - Scubalab, June 2005

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I stand corrected.

-Mitch

 

[diversteve]

edit: please disregard...

 

[knowone]

Get in quick before the one day sale ends and you can add one reg to your belt to counteract axis rotational forces for trim unless you buy an opposed necks tank with valves.

If you paint the regs titanium you will protect the chrome and have lighter regs.

 

[halocline]

Given that the T2 2nd is mostly plastic - if the metal parts are made of heavier brass vs. lighter titanium - I think you'll have to agree that there is a slight reduction in jaw fatigue using the lighter material. :

No I would not have to agree with that, because, as I said previously, 2nd stage weight (within reason) has no bearing on jaw fatigue. One more time, the 2nd stage is filled with air, in the water it "weighs" nothing.

Swivels have minimal effect on jaw fatigue, typically only if they compensate for an improperly sized hose. Just get the right length hose, the right mouthpiece, and you won't have jaw fatigue.

Some metal 2nds, like the SP 109, are substantially heavier than their plastic counterparts. I do notice this with my 109s, but they also increase condensation on the interior of the case, which helps relieve drymouth. So, IMO, the comfort with those (I also use some plastic 2nds) tends to be a wash; they're a little heavier in the mouth, but the air is a little warmer and moister.

To say that the weight difference between plastic 2nds that have Ti parts like the lever, barrel, and trim, and those that have corresponding brass parts, has even the slightest effect on breathing comfort is just silly. But, you spent the money, so of course you want to believe the hype. That's part of the whole sales philosophy.

 

[diversteve]

OK, to get specific.

An identical poly 2nd stage using brass components will weigh more than the identical 2nd stage using titanium components as TI is lighter. It might also be possible for the TI components to have thinner walls where pressure is a factor as the material is physically stronger - thus further reducing the weight slightly - IDK.

Don't qualify it by stating "in the water". Put them both on a scale and the TI version will be slightly lighter. Technically were it measurable, the TI version would also be slightly lighter in water. At this point I'm more arguing semantics than observable data.

I'm not claiming this as a valid comparison but the T2x as listed on the Atomic site is 1.8lbs. the Z2x is 2.3 lbs. And their ST1, M1 and B2 models are heavier still. It's just ounces but it is actually lighter.

I agree with you that in the water the differences are inconsequential. And I did post "slight" reduction previously.

I have the right length hose, the right mouthpiece and have had both a B1 and a T2. IIRC the B1 has TI components in the 2nd stage so the weight of each is probably very similar. The swivel makes the T2 more comfortable since I can position the hose slightly downward - that's an actual observation - not "believing the hype"

I considered top end regs from Oceanic, ScubaPro, Aqualung (I wanted the Black Pearl) Zeagle and Apeks before I bought the T2. And I do my homework - not taken in by flash. (except for the Black Pearl...lol)

We can debate this endlessly or just agree to disagree. Which I'm doing now. I'm done posting here but will read any follow-up post you care to make.

rgds,

 

[Greg Barlow]

Nice, good info for good maitenence.

And I thought the port plugs were removed with a normal wrench and there fore would have a hex bolt like the 2nd stage does.

I didn't realize they were removed via Allen key and it seems in fact I do have all of my port plugs

I feel like a dummy. Or a newbie.

I guess it was a false alarm!

Thanks guys.

The port plugs use a 4mm hex wrench.

Greg