As a side note I would like to thank the participants who have keep this discussion civilized. I am enjoying the discussion and hope that it will continue in this manner.
Chad
Chad
recert?
- Thread starter ericfine50
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He thought he position taken by the legislator was "condescending". He's worried about an "overzealous legislator"
Sounds like he's on your side, Genesis. Do you really want to make an enemy of someone that has a legislator's ear?
Roak
MHK,
Thanks, that was very clear. I remember hearing of that recovery. Nice job. I can imagine the insurance concerns as I have never heard of a municaple team qualified for a job like that.
I'm sure we could have a real ding dong of a thread on public safety teams alone. In many areas it's a very sad situation.
Chad has a good point. We might as well stay freindly because no important descision will be made here anyway. When it comes to training I think GUE has some real tricks up their sleeve and am rather proud of the fact that I blatantly steal some of it.
Actually before our GUE members get beat up too bad and run off I would enjoy a thread that deals more with training methods. One thing I see as really lacking in the industry is instructor to instructor communication. Agencies talk to instructors and instructors talk to students but instructors talking to instructors is less common. I do think that instructors can sway agencies and the equipment manufacturers can't have the ill effects I accuse them of without the help of instructors. But it's about time for me to sign off for the evening.
Mike
Thanks, that was very clear. I remember hearing of that recovery. Nice job. I can imagine the insurance concerns as I have never heard of a municaple team qualified for a job like that.
I'm sure we could have a real ding dong of a thread on public safety teams alone. In many areas it's a very sad situation.
Chad has a good point. We might as well stay freindly because no important descision will be made here anyway. When it comes to training I think GUE has some real tricks up their sleeve and am rather proud of the fact that I blatantly steal some of it.
Actually before our GUE members get beat up too bad and run off I would enjoy a thread that deals more with training methods. One thing I see as really lacking in the industry is instructor to instructor communication. Agencies talk to instructors and instructors talk to students but instructors talking to instructors is less common. I do think that instructors can sway agencies and the equipment manufacturers can't have the ill effects I accuse them of without the help of instructors. But it's about time for me to sign off for the evening.
Mike
Why not come out and say that they're actively opposing this, and work to do exactly that, including rallying the divers here and elsewhere?
How hard is it Roak?
I've been around politics long enough, and fought enough of these battles myself, to know that unless you get a CLEAR, unequivocal statement backed up with concrete action, that you cannot count on anyone doing anything other than what is in their financial interest when rubber hits the road.
Only when an organization commits to PUBLIC action, so that its nearly impossible to waffle and switch without destroying their credibility, do you have any hope of actually having a policy statement and position you can count on.
This kind of encroachment is something we should ALL be aware of, ALL have our nose to the ground on, ALL be sniffing for and ALL be very, very wary of.
Note that PADI had this issue blow up in their face over in Israel just a month or two ago.
I was promised a WRITTEN policy statement release from PADI in California.
DESPITE REPEATED REQUESTS, IT HAS NEITHER BEEN SENT TO ME NOR HAS IT BEEN RELEASED TO THE PUBLIC.
Now I was TOLD that PADI was "outraged" that their Israeli course director recommended to the government that ALL divers without DM/Instructor certs be required to dive WITH A DIVE MATER.
But were they REALLY outraged?
Or did they just tell me that they were?
See, their DMs would make quite a bit more money, would they not, if all divers had to be accompanied.....
I've seen NOTHING released to indicate that there was TRUE outrage, or that PADI REALLY disagreed with the stated position. There has been NO public release of a policy statement, never mind that this guy over in Israel made HIS testimony IN PUBLIC!
So you tell me Roak? What does PADI REALLY think? What does GUE REALLY think?
I'm not impressed with words on a message board. When there is an issue like this, organizations who TRULY claim to take a position must take that position in public, where they cannot easily repudiate it later!
This is particularly true when the rest of the statements made are, shall we say, "less than convincing" that the true inclination is in the correct direction.
I'm not anti-GUE. I'm VERY sensitive to any organization that wants to try to tell me how to dive, where to dive or when, and has an interest in enforcing their view with any form of actual restriction.
My fealty to my instructor(s) and their agencies end with the class.
How hard is it Roak?
I've been around politics long enough, and fought enough of these battles myself, to know that unless you get a CLEAR, unequivocal statement backed up with concrete action, that you cannot count on anyone doing anything other than what is in their financial interest when rubber hits the road.
Only when an organization commits to PUBLIC action, so that its nearly impossible to waffle and switch without destroying their credibility, do you have any hope of actually having a policy statement and position you can count on.
This kind of encroachment is something we should ALL be aware of, ALL have our nose to the ground on, ALL be sniffing for and ALL be very, very wary of.
Note that PADI had this issue blow up in their face over in Israel just a month or two ago.
I was promised a WRITTEN policy statement release from PADI in California.
DESPITE REPEATED REQUESTS, IT HAS NEITHER BEEN SENT TO ME NOR HAS IT BEEN RELEASED TO THE PUBLIC.
Now I was TOLD that PADI was "outraged" that their Israeli course director recommended to the government that ALL divers without DM/Instructor certs be required to dive WITH A DIVE MATER.
But were they REALLY outraged?
Or did they just tell me that they were?
See, their DMs would make quite a bit more money, would they not, if all divers had to be accompanied.....
I've seen NOTHING released to indicate that there was TRUE outrage, or that PADI REALLY disagreed with the stated position. There has been NO public release of a policy statement, never mind that this guy over in Israel made HIS testimony IN PUBLIC!
So you tell me Roak? What does PADI REALLY think? What does GUE REALLY think?
I'm not impressed with words on a message board. When there is an issue like this, organizations who TRULY claim to take a position must take that position in public, where they cannot easily repudiate it later!
This is particularly true when the rest of the statements made are, shall we say, "less than convincing" that the true inclination is in the correct direction.
I'm not anti-GUE. I'm VERY sensitive to any organization that wants to try to tell me how to dive, where to dive or when, and has an interest in enforcing their view with any form of actual restriction.
My fealty to my instructor(s) and their agencies end with the class.
MHK
Guest
One of the things I hope happens with EVERY class I teach that has instructors in the class is that they take what we teach and use it during their classes.. So feel free to steal away ;-)
Secondly, I'd love to exchange viewpoints on training methods, my only concern is that many of the differences are intangible in nature and often times when I try that in public forums the thread denigrates into a pissing contest and frankly I'll bow out if it gets to that point, but short of that let me know how I can help, and I, like you, am bowing out for the night..
Later
Spectre
Contributor
Good idea Mike. Perhaps you'll be back tomorrow with some surprise reading in Instructor to Instructor Communication
Scuba
Contributor
Genesis, you hit the nail on the head with your last post.
Where are the diving organizations when you need them to fight "diving regulations" with respect to gear a diver "must" use, and with respect to being "forced" to dive with a buddy? As is the case in the city of Laguna Beach, Ca. As a matter of fact they point to these organizations guidelines as the reason for taking this action. Hello?
The fact of the matter is that "they" are not going to fight govt. regulation - they are just going to join the party so they can have a slice of the cake too.
Since their "standards" are so low that they can't turn out a consistently quality product, they will willingly become an accomplice in shifting the blame on someone else. The gear, the necessity for a buddy, operator error, the lack of periodic re-evaluation. Anything but their dismall training record, which is saved only by the common sense of individuals and the relatively simple task required to dive.
If the course GUE has taken with respect to re-certification is any indication, nothing will change. ( I'm assuming assumption below is correct with respect to requirements ) Except time, effort and cost involved in diving.
Sending in log book copies to show 25 dives in three years, I suppose, is better than nothing. But all this does is exemplify the industry's problem once again. SETTING THE STANDARDS SO LOW TO MINIMIZE FAILURE THAT COMPETENCY IS COMPROMISED.
Where are the diving organizations when you need them to fight "diving regulations" with respect to gear a diver "must" use, and with respect to being "forced" to dive with a buddy? As is the case in the city of Laguna Beach, Ca. As a matter of fact they point to these organizations guidelines as the reason for taking this action. Hello?
The fact of the matter is that "they" are not going to fight govt. regulation - they are just going to join the party so they can have a slice of the cake too.
Since their "standards" are so low that they can't turn out a consistently quality product, they will willingly become an accomplice in shifting the blame on someone else. The gear, the necessity for a buddy, operator error, the lack of periodic re-evaluation. Anything but their dismall training record, which is saved only by the common sense of individuals and the relatively simple task required to dive.
If the course GUE has taken with respect to re-certification is any indication, nothing will change. ( I'm assuming assumption below is correct with respect to requirements ) Except time, effort and cost involved in diving.
Sending in log book copies to show 25 dives in three years, I suppose, is better than nothing. But all this does is exemplify the industry's problem once again. SETTING THE STANDARDS SO LOW TO MINIMIZE FAILURE THAT COMPETENCY IS COMPROMISED.
Scuba hits the nail directly on the head...
And herein lies the rub.
I have been debating a call for a Boycott of PADI and shops (and instructors!) affiliated with them over the Israeli issue now for over a month. Promised a written response from PADI, I held off.
Well, perhaps that decision was imprudent.
If GUE will not take a public stand on this matter, and fight the good fight, then unfortunately we have a pattern - and not the right kind of pattern either.
Folks, either we start making noise - and voting with our wallets - or we're going to see this happen. Its an incremental process, as it ALWAYS is. Californicated is known as the fruit and nut capital of the United States for a REASON; most of the "government stuffs itself into your life and won't leave" things have started there.
If we cede this fight by refusing to make an issue out of it now, as divers, we WILL be faced with the government telling us how, when and for how much money we can dive.
It has already been recommended in Israel, by PADI's course director in the country, to the government, and the promised PUBLIC rebuke from PADI never materialized.
Its already being discussed out in California, and instead of taking a strong PUBLIC stance against it, one of GUE's folks has instead been "talking" with legislators about it.
Call me what you want folks, but if we do not start paying close attention to this stuff and start demanding that the agencies involved stand up, take a strong position, and do so in public where they cannot weasel themselves into a licensing role for profit it is going to happen, probably sooner rather than later.
And herein lies the rub.
I have been debating a call for a Boycott of PADI and shops (and instructors!) affiliated with them over the Israeli issue now for over a month. Promised a written response from PADI, I held off.
Well, perhaps that decision was imprudent.
If GUE will not take a public stand on this matter, and fight the good fight, then unfortunately we have a pattern - and not the right kind of pattern either.
Folks, either we start making noise - and voting with our wallets - or we're going to see this happen. Its an incremental process, as it ALWAYS is. Californicated is known as the fruit and nut capital of the United States for a REASON; most of the "government stuffs itself into your life and won't leave" things have started there.
If we cede this fight by refusing to make an issue out of it now, as divers, we WILL be faced with the government telling us how, when and for how much money we can dive.
It has already been recommended in Israel, by PADI's course director in the country, to the government, and the promised PUBLIC rebuke from PADI never materialized.
Its already being discussed out in California, and instead of taking a strong PUBLIC stance against it, one of GUE's folks has instead been "talking" with legislators about it.
Call me what you want folks, but if we do not start paying close attention to this stuff and start demanding that the agencies involved stand up, take a strong position, and do so in public where they cannot weasel themselves into a licensing role for profit it is going to happen, probably sooner rather than later.
I have to tell you that I think you've gone off the deep end. Seems to me like you hear an idea that possibly you may not like, then you go totally postal protesting against it, no matter what anyone else says on the issue, and no matter how much sense they make or how right they are.
MHK has clearly stated it is neither his nor GUE's intent to require government licensing to dive. When you realized this, you backed off attacking GUE for "talking to legislators" and instead are attacking them for not "taking a public stand"?
You were all gung ho about going after manufacturers for price fixing... for about a week. You seem to have forgotten that, as I assume your overzealousness for this will fade.
At least the price fixing idea made some sense.
MHK has clearly stated it is neither his nor GUE's intent to require government licensing to dive. When you realized this, you backed off attacking GUE for "talking to legislators" and instead are attacking them for not "taking a public stand"?
You were all gung ho about going after manufacturers for price fixing... for about a week. You seem to have forgotten that, as I assume your overzealousness for this will fade.
At least the price fixing idea made some sense.
you can believe whatever you want.
I believe that when someone makes a statement that leaves them a clear avenue to persue or support a given thing, when the option existed for them to make a public statement that would have foreclosed that path of action, that they did it for a reason.
You do not.
Perhaps you've never worked in the political arena.
I have. For many years. It was an inherent part of operating my company, because we were continually in all manner of conflict relating to governance of the Internet and related areas (such as content regulation.)
I've seen this pattern far too many times to ignore it.
BTW, my price-fixing crusade is not "gone". Its just another thing on my plate, but by no means has it "disappeared" from my radar, nor has it been "forgotten."
I believe that GUE and MHK could have easily made a nice, solid, public statement on this matter. They have decided not to. Just like PADI decided not to on the Israeli issue, even though they SAID THEY WOULD.
It would have been so easy for MHK to make a clear, unequivocal, no-weasel-room statement of position for GUE. But that would foreclose some of their options, wouldn't it?
I believe that when someone makes a statement that leaves them a clear avenue to persue or support a given thing, when the option existed for them to make a public statement that would have foreclosed that path of action, that they did it for a reason.
You do not.
Perhaps you've never worked in the political arena.
I have. For many years. It was an inherent part of operating my company, because we were continually in all manner of conflict relating to governance of the Internet and related areas (such as content regulation.)
I've seen this pattern far too many times to ignore it.
BTW, my price-fixing crusade is not "gone". Its just another thing on my plate, but by no means has it "disappeared" from my radar, nor has it been "forgotten."
I believe that GUE and MHK could have easily made a nice, solid, public statement on this matter. They have decided not to. Just like PADI decided not to on the Israeli issue, even though they SAID THEY WOULD.
It would have been so easy for MHK to make a clear, unequivocal, no-weasel-room statement of position for GUE. But that would foreclose some of their options, wouldn't it?
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