After all, Jarrod is the CEO, right? I would hate to see the ramifications if I started making public statements for my organization without going through proper channels...
Excellent debate so far..I'll go back to reading now..keep it up!
recert?
- Thread starter ericfine50
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Excellent debate so far..I'll go back to reading now..keep it up!
Ramification$, eh?
If you remember (you can still find the thread here) there was a furor over the director of PADI's coursework in Israel making a speech to legislators in which he pushed HARD for mandating that divers be accompanied by a paid Divemaster or Instructor - unless they had, themselves, attained a DM or Instructor rating.
That's by law, not by "policy".
PADI was contacted. I, in fact, both emailed and CALLED PADI. I was told they were "appalled", that they "disagreed", and that they would issue a public statement on the matter.
In fact, I was told that their folks from that part of the world were coming to California for DEMA, and that this was an action item on the agenda.
Well, O-ring, you will note that there has been a DEAFENING silence from PADI on this matter.
They were appalled all right when I called them - appalled that I noted that I might crank up a boycott effort aimed at their dive centers, instructors, affiliated shops and organization. They all but begged me not to pending their public statement of position on this matter.
A statement that has not been made.
Yes, JJ needs to be consulted and get involved.
But now, quite honestly, the gauntlet needs to be thrown down by all of us in the United States.
GUE's refusal to get involved in this would be TWO organizations, polar opposites if you will, that have decided to go quiet rather than fight this menace and nip it in the bud before it ends up going into full bloom.
It would behoove all of us as divers to pressure the standards and training organizations to take a VERY public stand on these issues. We had better get off our duffs and do this, along with applying pressure through the power of the wallet, and we would be wise to undertake this action now rather than later.
Before the damage is done - and impossible to reverse.
If you remember (you can still find the thread here) there was a furor over the director of PADI's coursework in Israel making a speech to legislators in which he pushed HARD for mandating that divers be accompanied by a paid Divemaster or Instructor - unless they had, themselves, attained a DM or Instructor rating.
That's by law, not by "policy".
PADI was contacted. I, in fact, both emailed and CALLED PADI. I was told they were "appalled", that they "disagreed", and that they would issue a public statement on the matter.
In fact, I was told that their folks from that part of the world were coming to California for DEMA, and that this was an action item on the agenda.
Well, O-ring, you will note that there has been a DEAFENING silence from PADI on this matter.
They were appalled all right when I called them - appalled that I noted that I might crank up a boycott effort aimed at their dive centers, instructors, affiliated shops and organization. They all but begged me not to pending their public statement of position on this matter.
A statement that has not been made.
Yes, JJ needs to be consulted and get involved.
But now, quite honestly, the gauntlet needs to be thrown down by all of us in the United States.
GUE's refusal to get involved in this would be TWO organizations, polar opposites if you will, that have decided to go quiet rather than fight this menace and nip it in the bud before it ends up going into full bloom.
It would behoove all of us as divers to pressure the standards and training organizations to take a VERY public stand on these issues. We had better get off our duffs and do this, along with applying pressure through the power of the wallet, and we would be wise to undertake this action now rather than later.
Before the damage is done - and impossible to reverse.
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This has been a very interesting thread. Several things I'd like say on this issue.
First, I'd like welcome Mike Kane here. Its great to have you and I look forward to benefiting from your wisdom and experience and to, hopefully, having some good discussions with you in the future.
Secondly, its nice to see a thread stay on track. I know, sometimes I've been the guilty one for derailing threads but that's never been my intention when it starts out.
On the issue of recertification I have mixed feelings. As a recreational Instructor and Key Largo dive boat captain for a period of about 10 years (now retired from that) I saw a lot of reasons to argue for some type of recertification/currency process. On the other hand, I also see the need to resist any sort of legislative intrusion into the diving industry. It's been my experience that once the lawmakers get a foot in the door it won't be long until the whole thing is hosed up and completely out of our control.
Here in Florida there were recently some movements , by a very small group of divers, towards pushing for some sort of "war graves" protection of a few specific wrecks. While the idea might seem good at first glance, how far can it be until the talk moves to protecting all wrecks which might contain human remains? From there its a tiny step until all we have left to dive are artificial reefs, Miami River trash sunk because it was too expensive to scrap?
I think the idea of recertification deserves thought. If it can be done in a way which maintains our position as a self-policing industry I would support it.
As to GUE's specific policy on this, I think its a good one overall and, were I a GUE diver, I would support it.
This leads me to another topic. I'd very much like to discuss, primarily with MHK but also anyone who is interested, a specific GUE policy. So as not to derail this thread, I will start a new topic entitled "GUE Policy" in Basic Scuba Discussions. I hope that you will read what I have to say and respond if you feel it appropriate.
Thanks,
Tom
Moderator Note: edited to add link to new thread
First, I'd like welcome Mike Kane here. Its great to have you and I look forward to benefiting from your wisdom and experience and to, hopefully, having some good discussions with you in the future.
Secondly, its nice to see a thread stay on track. I know, sometimes I've been the guilty one for derailing threads but that's never been my intention when it starts out.
On the issue of recertification I have mixed feelings. As a recreational Instructor and Key Largo dive boat captain for a period of about 10 years (now retired from that) I saw a lot of reasons to argue for some type of recertification/currency process. On the other hand, I also see the need to resist any sort of legislative intrusion into the diving industry. It's been my experience that once the lawmakers get a foot in the door it won't be long until the whole thing is hosed up and completely out of our control.
Here in Florida there were recently some movements , by a very small group of divers, towards pushing for some sort of "war graves" protection of a few specific wrecks. While the idea might seem good at first glance, how far can it be until the talk moves to protecting all wrecks which might contain human remains? From there its a tiny step until all we have left to dive are artificial reefs, Miami River trash sunk because it was too expensive to scrap?
I think the idea of recertification deserves thought. If it can be done in a way which maintains our position as a self-policing industry I would support it.
As to GUE's specific policy on this, I think its a good one overall and, were I a GUE diver, I would support it.
This leads me to another topic. I'd very much like to discuss, primarily with MHK but also anyone who is interested, a specific GUE policy. So as not to derail this thread, I will start a new topic entitled "GUE Policy" in Basic Scuba Discussions. I hope that you will read what I have to say and respond if you feel it appropriate.
Thanks,
Tom
Moderator Note: edited to add link to new thread
OP
ericfine50
Contributor
Guys,
Lets all take a few deep breaths and step away for a sec. In the end, the bottom line should be that OW divers need better training and this forum is allowing for different ideas to come up.
Eric
Lets all take a few deep breaths and step away for a sec. In the end, the bottom line should be that OW divers need better training and this forum is allowing for different ideas to come up.
Eric
(Emphasis mine)
Need. That word often immediately precedes government intervention.
I do not agree that OW divers "need" better training.
The facts are that a very small number of divers have serious complications from their diving, taken as a whole against the diving population and the number of dives.
Very few people die, in truth, from their diving activities.
DAN shows what - roughly 100 deaths annually? Out of how many dives? We don't know. If we count only US deaths, the number is quite a bit smaller; let's say that half of all deaths are US citizens (probably about right.)
If there are 2,000,000 US divers in total and 50 deaths among them, the risk of death, annually, is 0.005% for a diver.
That's one in 20,000.
To put this in perspective, there are close to 50,000 deaths in automobiles in the United States annually. If we assume that essentially all of the 280,000,000 people in the US travel by car at some point in the year, there is a risk of death by car of 0.02% for automobiles. That is, its four times as likely you will be killed in a car crash as you will be killed diving. To be more blunt about it, you are four times as likely to die in your car on the way to the dive boat than you are to die while actually diving.
Another data point. There are roughly 500,000 deaths every year due to heart disease in the US. The risk of death by heart disease is 0.2% annually, across that same (US) population. Yet the behaviors that cause heart disease - primarily overconsumption of various foods and lack of activity, are not proscribed by law.
Do OW divers "need" better training? Clearly, from the statistics, the answer is no.
Is better training always better? Against what measure? Against the measure of risk of death or serious injury? Is that not the participant's decision?
What level of risk is "good enough"?
I'd argue that we're WAY beyond "good enough" already, just from the statistics.
Scuba
Contributor
WreckWriter,
Ask yourself this question: What is the purpose and intent of re-certification? (another term for license to operate)
Does the current GUE policy for re-certification meet the intent and purpose, clearly and unequivocally?
Genesis,
I have to disagree on your last point about OW students not being in need of better training. Maybe so from the fatality rate you quote. But definitely so from the diving skills and knowledge many demonstrate.
If you certify an architect, and his houses just kind of sway with the winds even though they don't quite fall down to the ground, I think you would agree that he is in need of better training.
Ask yourself this question: What is the purpose and intent of re-certification? (another term for license to operate)
Does the current GUE policy for re-certification meet the intent and purpose, clearly and unequivocally?
Genesis,
I have to disagree on your last point about OW students not being in need of better training. Maybe so from the fatality rate you quote. But definitely so from the diving skills and knowledge many demonstrate.
If you certify an architect, and his houses just kind of sway with the winds even though they don't quite fall down to the ground, I think you would agree that he is in need of better training.
I wish you would stop saying that. It's entirely wrong.
I think divers need better education.
I think the government needs to stay the #%@* out of it.
I'm not implying oversight, or license, or anything else when I say need.
salty
Contributor
I just skiped over about four pages of what most likely can be considered crap to point out a few things.
1. GUE is one of several agencys if you dont like them dont deal with them and stop crying. If you truly think they will be taking over the world and implementing their views forcably over every one than go out back to your bomb shelter and hide untill we tell you its safe.
2. Re-Certifiing tells me some one is looking up on you so if two divers approch me and one has a card from 1980 for open water and the other has a card from 1999 thats with an agency that at the least tries to make sure your still compatant at the level you were trained for which person will you be more comfertable diving with.
3. Last time I checked GUE wasent out to take over the SCUBA world, but they do offer one hell of an option to the old system.
1. GUE is one of several agencys if you dont like them dont deal with them and stop crying. If you truly think they will be taking over the world and implementing their views forcably over every one than go out back to your bomb shelter and hide untill we tell you its safe.
2. Re-Certifiing tells me some one is looking up on you so if two divers approch me and one has a card from 1980 for open water and the other has a card from 1999 thats with an agency that at the least tries to make sure your still compatant at the level you were trained for which person will you be more comfertable diving with.
3. Last time I checked GUE wasent out to take over the SCUBA world, but they do offer one hell of an option to the old system.
divers "need" better education. I believe the statistics on the safety of the sport support my point of view.
I believe that divers may CHOOSE better education, but that this is not the same thing as a "need".
Precision in language is a big deal with me. Its also a big deal with those who would attempt to change things to suit themselves, especially when they can seize on the misstatements made by others and justify their point of view with them.
I believe that divers may CHOOSE better education, but that this is not the same thing as a "need".
Precision in language is a big deal with me. Its also a big deal with those who would attempt to change things to suit themselves, especially when they can seize on the misstatements made by others and justify their point of view with them.
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