Rescue type question

[doctormike]

I have two sons, now age 26 and 21. Both of them are very "natural" divers, very comfortable in the water, good SAC, both got certified at age 13. The older one is pretty much done with diving now, has some difficulty equalizing but also just not really into it. The younger one will dive with me if I take him, but not really interested in doing it on his own.

The younger one is now maturing nicely, but back in the day he really played the part of the teenage boy who doesn't take advice from anyone, wasn't interested in learning much dive theory besides what he needed to do to pass OW, and had that infuriating sense of immortality that takes its toll on a father's stomach lining and coronary arteries (not just while diving).

I remember him doing things like penetrating a wreck when he was past turn pressure, on the ascent. Even with me and an instructor buddy of mine with him, he was very difficult.

I made it clear to him that he is welcome to dive with me but I make the plan and I make the decisions like that during the dive. End of story. It's a very fine line to walk, but obviously safety comes first.

On the other hand, if you come down too heavy then they just say "screw this" and that's it for diving. Which is fine, but most parents realize that raising a child is a very complex business with a lot of judgement calls and nuance. So if you can keep things safe without making it miserable, you are doing well...

 

[Dirty-Dog]

Actually, *I* did read the post, and yes, it's what he said. He said the person responsible for the 16 y/o thumbed the dive. You then asked why the 16 y/o should turn the dive. The answer is: Because his buddy thumbed the dive. No further reason is needed.

If the 16 year old is a certified diver, then the 16 year old IS the person responsible for the 16 year old.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

does anyone else have any experience using this technique or can anyone comment on it based on the info presented?
Thanks, Z

To me there is very little to go on like depth and visibility, currents, shore dive or boat dive? My son is 15yo.

On shallow dives under 40 feet - I let my son have much more freedom to explore and find his comfort zone. But I want him in sight - after the dives where this was broken we had a discussion on the importance of "seeing" and "self awareness" and the importance on my safety as well (not just his safety).

On a deep or low viz dive (I have been with him to 114 feet and less than 6 inch viz) with him we have a plan - mostly it is my plan but I am trying to get him to plan dives so at least he knows what my plan is before diving. This is much more stringent guidelines the deeper and darker it gets and the consequences will be more severe. Because he is my son - I can grab him but I would never rip his mask off unless he knew it was coming and we talked about it. I think that removing a mask is a potential danger zone that I would not cross.

But I would grab him so he knows that I am serious - that fact that you or someone was close enough to get to the mask means you can take control of the BC or hand to get the attention.
After that you need a heart to heart about what he was thinking, why he thought it was ok and how you felt about the incident - including your disappointment of his actions and concern for his safety. I am never shy about telling him his mother will kill me next if I don't come home with him alive. I have had this discussion a few times and he is a good buddy at this point. But as a parent I am ready for when he may relapse and I hope it will just be a reminder to get him to become situational aware the next time.

 

[stuartv]

If the 16 year old is a certified diver, then the 16 year old IS the person responsible for the 16 year old.

This is just a guess here, but you don't have children, do you? I don't have children, but I do have some notion of how U.S. liability works when it comes to people below the age of 18.

Anyway, I'm not the one who said that someone else was responsible for the 16 y/o. I just read the facts as stated, read your question, and gave the (obvious) answer. No judgment from me on how the "responsible" party handled it or even whether that person should have thumbed the dive when he or she did. From my perspective, if two people are on a recreational dive, as buddies, then, no matter the age, the answer to your question of "why should he turn the dive" is always sufficient and complete if the response is "because the buddy thumbed the dive." Period. Age and whether someone is responsible for the other person are irrelevant at that point.

If the 16 y/o didn't learn anything else from this experience, hopefully he at least learned that when your buddy thumbs the dive, the dive is over. Period. You don't endanger your buddy who is thumbing the dive by forcing them to choose between leaving their buddy or staying past when they have decided they need to ascend.

 

[CptTightPants21]

Need more info--

1. Conditions--Viz, currents, depth?
2. What was turn pressure?

 

[Herb-alaska]

I see this is as a case of the 16 year old not respecting the buddy. When a buddy thumbs the dive it is a no questions asked the dive is done, unless your protocol allows for it to be converted to a solo dive at that time.

The 16 year old was not OOA or narced they were simply pushing the safety envelope further than their buddy was willing to go. If it was my child they would respect the safe parameters that we set before we gear up or they would not dive again until they reach 18 and make their own choices. If I was the buddy on the dive and it was my child I would have stayed with the child until I was OOA or I was able to get them to ascend, because with my child I long ago decided that If I can I will not ascend alive unless my child does as well. Now if this was your child that I was diving with then it would have been 3 tries to get him to ascend with some stern in your face communication then I would be out of there because my level of commitment to that buddy does not go as far as it would with my own child.

Would I pull his mask to force an ascent NO! that is dangerous, reckless and could actually be a case for manslaughter if the diver died and assault had they not died. You do not intentionally turn what is a not a good situation in to a crap storm intentionally.

Herb

 

[doctormike]

This is a good reason why you should never dive with a full face mask and your 16 year old son as a buddy. Because if you did, when you TELL him that it's time to ascend, you will get an ENDLESS argument about why he is fine, and why you are an idiot, and why he can stay down as long as he likes, etc....

 

[Dirty-Dog]

This is just a guess here, but you don't have children, do you?

I have three children, Sue has seven. All of them are educated adults with good jobs. You know... productive citizens.
They didn't get that way by being treated like 3 year olds when they were 16.

We also have 8 grandchildren (and 2 more on the way) ranging from 1 to 18.

If you treat children like irresponsible idiots, they grow up to be irresponsible idiots.

I agree that if your buddy thumbs the dive, you should head out. The key word there is should​. I do NOT agree that refusal to do so justifies any action other than their heading out without you.

 

[doctormike]

If you treat children like irresponsible idiots, they grow up to be irresponsible idiots.

I agree that if your buddy thumbs the dive, you should head out. The key word there is should​. I do NOT agree that refusal to do so justifies any action other than their heading out without you.

Yeah, but they are also children, and brain development doesn't stop at age 12. There is a reason why 16 year olds can't drink, drive, vote or join the service. There's a lot of range between toddler and tech instructor.

What would you do if you were diving with your 16 year old, you saw that they were past their turn pressure, you thumbed the dive and they waved you off (or penetrated a wreck)..? You would ascend without him?

 

[stuartv]

If you treat children like irresponsible idiots, they grow up to be irresponsible idiots.

I agree that if your buddy thumbs the dive, you should head out. The key word there is should​. I do NOT agree that refusal to do so justifies any action other than their heading out without you.

All agreed - when both parties ARE adults.

But, your statement about leaving an irresponsible idiot of a child behind when scuba diving... well, we'll have to agree to disagree. And particularly when you're talking about leaving someone else's child behind for the simple reason that they shook their head and said no. If the "responsible" diver had done that and the 16 y/o subsequently ran out of air, panicked, and drowned... Well, that's the kind of thing that, in the U.S., would not surprise me to see result in the "responsible" diver getting sued into bankruptcy (rightly or wrongly). That spectre alone would prevent me, personally, from just throwing up my proverbial hands and leaving a 16 y/o on the bottom that was my buddy (thoughts of some kind of actual, assigned responsibility completely aside).

In the case of a child (anyone under 18), I would never just leave them unless I HAD to. No matter how much you wish they would act like a grownup, they are still a child in the eyes of the law. I would most likely, as a final resort, effect a "rescue" of a "combative diver" (as I was trained in the Rescue Diver course) if I had to, in order to ensure we both got to the surface together and as safely as possible. Note: I said as a FINAL RESORT - meaning, after employing less drastic measures.