Responsibility of the Intro Instructor

[barefootscuba]

"Did you read and comprehend the entire thread before making your post"

I guess I am not seeing why you are putting this up for me to see.

1st off in the post you mention Oahu, so I naturally am thinking you are talking about a dive company on the Island but in fact you cant be. In your most recent post you mention "night Manta snorkel" The only island that you can complete a dive much less a snorkel with the Mantas would be the Big Island also known as the island of Hawaii "not Oahu".

Maybe you are suggesting that since it was a private charter that there wasn’t a shop/company involved. But somehow she was able to make the booking so there would be a company involved.
Or maybe I’m just stupid and can’t see where you mention the operator.

Liability for the other instructor is that with out the whole story you wouldn’t be able to say
"These uncontrolled assents" There are still no specifics about the depth that they happened at, I know you mentioned they were on a 30 to 40 ft dive but, who is to say that the assents didn’t happen at the 6ft mark when they are doing there skills. And yes skills would have to be performed again even if they were introduced by another instructor.

As for the DM's, you are not qualified to teach divers any skills either in the openwater or the confined water. To clarify Divemasters are not allowed to (Teach Skills) in either area, if they are they are breaking standards this goes for any and all courses that have actual skills involved. This is one of the 1st standards I teach my DM’s. They can help with skills but only after a instructor has actually been the 1st to introduce the skill. This goes for Intros, Openwater classes, advanced classes, Rescue classes. They are not allowed to be the introductory person for any skills.

The skills for the discover scuba course only need to be brought about because they will or are going to go into openwater. I can take anyone in a pool have them breathing and swimming around but once you get them in the openwater no matter what they have learned in the pool there is room for catastrophe. The reason Divemaster can take intros in the pool or confined water is because they don’t have to be shown any skills. Also Dive masters who complete a discover scuba diving internship course are only allowed to lead divers in the confined water environment or lead a maximum of two divers in the openwater after an instructor has completed a dive. If they haven’t completed this internship course then they can’t lead them either.

From the PADI Manuel:
Only teaching status PADI instructors may conduct the PADI discover scuba diving program in an openwater environment-including all portions of the program leading to and including the openwater dive.
The instructor must also maintain direct supervision during the dive and not engage in any other activities, such as video or photography.
For subsequent discover scuba diving openwater dives the maximum ratio is two participants to one certified assistant (2:1). A teaching status PADI instructor must indirectly supervise all subsequent dives.

This is saying that DM’s cannot just take out intros on a dive. Period!!!!

 

[barefootscuba]

Most news stories about accidents happening in the water don’t make it out to news papers or TV and if they do they are very vague.

A scuba diver died Thursday the 10th while diving at around 100ft of water off of the Waianae Coast.
"The man appeared to be in his 70s", said Bryan Cheplic city Emergency Services Department spoksman. We have been told that the diver's companions were able to get him into the boat, begin CPR and call for an ambulance at about 1p.m.

The diver in question was brought to Waianae boat harbor where an air med chopper was waiting to take him to the nearest hospital. "The man was pronounced dead a short while later." Cheplic said. The diver in question was on a charter trip with Aaron's dive company on the Hapa. Identity of the victim and cause of death is unknown at this time.
Sad day in the scuba world for Hawaii

I know this makes at least 2 deaths in the past 2 years for this company but there are speculations of at least another 4. Is it coincidence or are they all accidental to be happing with the same company.

 

[Web Monkey]

I know this makes at least 2 deaths in the past 2 years for this company but there are speculations of at least another 4. Is it coincidence or are they all accidental to be happing with the same company.

Not to be too cold, but it really doesn't matter much. Old people die all the time. If I had the choice, I'd much rather my obit read that I died @ 100' on some really cool reef or wall than in a hospital bed.

That said, maybe there should be an "Older Diving" specialty that tells old folks how to Do Things Easy when diving, and not to panic.

Terry

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

1st off in the post you mention Oahu, so I naturally am thinking you are talking about a dive company on the Island but in fact you cant be. In your most recent post you mention "night Manta snorkel" The only island that you can complete a dive much less a snorkel with the Mantas would be the Big Island also known as the island of Hawaii "not Oahu".

When I look at the OP (original post) I only see this Island identification hint; "had been in the Islands for over a week, but only on the voggy island of incident for a couple days."

Prior to that statement there was this; "The dive in question is conducted at dusk, before a night snorkel experience."

By the way, there are Manta dives on Islands other than Hawaii; Hawaii has the only night Manta dives.

Maybe you are suggesting that since it was a private charter that there wasn’t a shop/company involved. But somehow she was able to make the booking so there would be a company involved.
Or maybe I’m just stupid and can’t see where you mention the operator.

For your answer, please see post #27.

That should be enough to show you why I repeatedly ask you;

Did you read and comprehend the entire thread before making your post

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

From the PADI Manuel:
Only teaching status PADI instructors may conduct the PADI discover scuba diving program in an openwater environment-including all portions of the program leading to and including the openwater dive.
The instructor must also maintain direct supervision during the dive and not engage in any other activities, such as video or photography.
For subsequent discover scuba diving openwater dives the maximum ratio is two participants to one certified assistant (2:1). A teaching status PADI instructor must indirectly supervise all subsequent dives.

This is saying that DM’s cannot just take out intros on a dive. Period!!!!

I'm confused here; you do seem to be saying that DM's can take intro divers on Open Water dives, right?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I have really been avoiding making this statement, but ignorance has reared it's ugly head more than once.

I was never worried about my liability for this incident due to my successful guiding of 2 intro dives with this person 2.5 years ago. I am still not worried about my liability for this incident; that would be ignorant IMHO!

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I know this makes at least 2 deaths in the past 2 years for this company but there are speculations of at least another 4. Is it coincidence or are they all accidental to be happing with the same company.

For a competitor to post such speculation on a public scuba forum would seem to be of equal if not greater lack of professionalism than the operator you so casually impugn!

 

[*dave*]

I have really been avoiding making this statement, but ignorance has reared it's ugly head more than once.

I was never worried about my liability for this incident due to my successful guiding of 2 intro dives with this person 2.5 years ago. I am still not worried about my liability for this incident; that would be ignorant IMHO!

Speaking of ignorance....

5000 successful dives won't mean squat in terms of liability if you screw the pooch on 5001 and your charge is injured as a result of your negligence.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Speaking of ignorance....

5000 successful dives won't mean squat in terms of liability if you screw the pooch on 5001 and your charge is injured as a result of your negligence.

From what DevonDiver posted in post #7, the instructor who allowed this incident/injury to happen is likely not facing any liability.

 

[*dave*]

I have really been avoiding making this statement, but ignorance has reared it's ugly head more than once.

I was never worried about my liability for this incident due to my successful guiding of 2 intro dives with this person 2.5 years ago. I am still not worried about my liability for this incident; that would be ignorant IMHO!

Are you quoting someone in the above post or are these your statements? In either case, the statement is ignorant.

From what DevonDiver posted in post #7, the instructor who allowed this incident/injury to happen is likely not facing any liability.

Maybe not, but I was addressing your post which seemed to indicate you had no fear of liability because you conducted successful dives with the person 2.5 years ago.