Rudeness at Joe's Quarry by another lds

[cdiver2]

Was it wrong YES. But what you must realize is.

LDS are in competition with each other and times are hard, like it or not a lot of them will cut each others throat given a chance, its called survival.

What amazes me is the number of posts (one in this thread) that will not name names. Naming the wrong party is one thing that will help keep people on the straight and narrow.

 

[icyman]

It is pretty much a routine occurence at places like Joe's(i.e. quarries). It is a place to train students and for new divers to practice what they have learned once certified. People will stir up the silt in the process and the viz will go down hill as soon as classes get in the water. She should have known that in the first place. Secondly, being aware of this she can use it to her students advantage by taking them in and out of areas where there is a distinct change in the viz. This helps them develope coping skills i.e. remaining calm, not losing control of breathing and therefore not losing bouyancy control, staying on course while swimming through the area. Thirdly, she can point out to her students examples of how even inadvertent contact with the bottom can have a significant affect on the viz. She missed some training opprotunities IMHO.



It is unprofessional to berate ANYONE in public. Her upbringing as a child should have taught her that.



I would not have done what she did, but, I do call attention to every fin touch a fin stroke of my students that stirs up silt. With silt you need not actually contact it to stir it up. Improper finning techniques near silt will stir it up quite well from quite a surprising distance from the bottom.

I stop my students as soon as I see the "infraction" and make them turn around at look at the billowing mushroom cloud they just created. Then make my disatisfaction plain to them.

I agree with what you said about quarries, heck that’s why I don’t normally go there. Due to the fact I am getting refresher courses to brush up on my skills from the past I have to go to the quarries, but its no big deal if the water stinks as it did 2 weeks ago.

The odd thing is she was teaching an advanced class as well, they were doing navigation. I was taught navigation in any conditions; turbid water was especially useful for just that. I guess she wanted her rescue divers to have perfect vis for that segment of her lesson.

Before she had arrived our instructor was going over our previous dive and was discussing the fact that in the swim through people had disturbed the silt. He was just starting to cover finning techniques but due to her interruption he forgot about it when she was finished. His method is much different from hers though, he covers everything in a very calm respective positive manner.

You made some good points that I will use in the future, the example of swimming through turbid water yet remaining calm. Some people actually get stressed by just seeing turbid water. I think I was taught a great deal more than I was there to be instructed upon, I was taught exactly how a unscrupulous instructor does behave in front of a class. Your right though No one should do it to anther individual.

I also learned who to complain to in an event such as this, her dive certifing agency.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I agree with what you said about quarries, heck that’s why I don’t normally go there. Due to the fact I am getting refresher courses to brush up on my skills from the past I have to go to the quarries, but its no big deal if the water stinks as it did 2 weeks ago.

I used to love to dive the quarries but the classes (amd other groups of divers with poor technique) have gotten so big and they don't learn enough in the pool before going to open water that they do maye a mud milkshake out of the lake.

It does ruin it for every one else.

The odd thing is she was teaching an advanced class as well, they were doing navigation. I was taught navigation in any conditions; turbid water was especially useful for just that. I guess she wanted her rescue divers to have perfect vis for that segment of her lesson.

It's always nice to have a little vis so you can see your class to supervise them.

Before she had arrived our instructor was going over our previous dive and was discussing the fact that in the swim through people had disturbed the silt. He was just starting to cover finning techniques but due to her interruption he forgot about it when she was finished. His method is much different from hers though, he covers everything in a very calm respective positive manner.

The time to learn anti-silting techniques is before you go into that silty environment.

You made some good points that I will use in the future, the example of swimming through turbid water yet remaining calm. Some people actually get stressed by just seeing turbid water. I think I was taught a great deal more than I was there to be instructed upon, I was taught exactly how a unscrupulous instructor does behave in front of a class. Your right though No one should do it to anther individual.

I also learned who to complain to in an event such as this, her dive certifing agency.

I probably have complained to her agency but it would have been about the instructors who trash the place.

These quarries aren't only open for training, other people dive there.

A silted up mess is not good for entry level training anyway.

The agencies and instructors just don't get it or they don't care. I'm not sure what's left but to call them on it in gront of the students they're supposed to be teaching.

Did you get a chance to see how the other instructor and class looked in the water?

 

[icyman]

I used to love to dive the quarries but the classes (amd other groups of divers with poor technique) have gotten so big and they don't learn enough in the pool before going to open water that they do maye a mud milkshake out of the lake.

It does ruin it for every one else.

It's always nice to have a little vis so you can see your class to supervise them.

The time to learn anti-silting techniques is before you go into that silty environment.

I probably have complained to her agency but it would have been about the instructors who trash the place.

These quarries aren't only open for training, other people dive there.

A silted up mess is not good for entry level training anyway.

The agencies and instructors just don't get it or they don't care. I'm not sure what's left but to call them on it in gront of the students they're supposed to be teaching.

Did you get a chance to see how the other instructor and class looked in the water?

I got to see how her class was in the water alright; it looked like a cattle car operation in Mexico. She had like twenty students in the water, and they made it impossible to get in the water without stirring up some silt.

They had commandeered the whole dock for their class, and didn't want to share. As I mentioned before, when we arrived they were in the hut our LDS built and didn’t want to share that. There wasn’t much they could do about that. So they took up the whole dock and diving platforms instead. I think this kind of self absorbent attitude is not reflective of the divers I have encountered through the entire world. But it is apparant that not only did this woman not learn manners growing up, no one taught her to share either.

Actually this type of behavior is counterproductive to the dive industry, I don’t care how hard up someone is having to compete for customers. I would never disparage another dive operation in this manner, I would do as our instructor did. When asked about other LDS, he just said, I don’t really know about those guys, I can just tell you I do this. Those that disparage another individual in front of their students bring down the overall professionalism of the dive industry, as well as belittling themselves at the same time.

I do plan on writing Joe during this week to mention her unprofessional behavior and her agency about the events I witnessed.

 

[icyman]

I was standing in the one of the nearby pavilions and heard what she said.

It's one thing to pull a person aside and say something it's another to do it in front of their students and customers. That kind of thing is inexcusable.

Yes you were, I remeber one of the guys saying Hello to you.

Jeez she must have been louder than I realized. Oh well, then you know excatly what I mean.

 

[netmage]

Ya know - I'm on the fence with this one a little bit. I've been diving alot over the last year and a half. Some great lakes, some warm water, mostly in quarries. (Gilboa, Portage, Haigh, etc)...

I've been to Gilboa when it was cold enough to scare the classes and students away - and viz was awesome, 40'+. I've been to Haigh when Scuba Emporium shows up with what seems like a school bus full of students and commadears 8-10 picnic tables and overtakes the platforms for their checkouts. So, to be quite honest, If I'm paying my hard earned money to dive there, the least I can expect is for the Instructors to earn their money and teach these people how to dive before moving on to their checkouts.

Is it unprofessional for one dive pro to publically berate another whilst instructing? Yes - I'm sure it is. But If thats what it takes to get better viz - I'm all for it.

Now based on the story above, the way I'm reading it - I think its more a situation of the pot calling the kettle 'black', as obviously the berater was in no position to give lectures on dive site management....

 

[MikeFerrara]

I got to see how her class was in the water alright; it looked like a cattle car operation in Mexico. She had like twenty students in the water, and they made it impossible to get in the water without stirring up some silt.

They had commandeered the whole dock for their class, and didn't want to share. As I mentioned before, when we arrived they were in the hut our LDS built and didn’t want to share that. There wasn’t much they could do about that. So they took up the whole dock and diving platforms instead. I think this kind of self absorbent attitude is not reflective of the divers I have encountered through the entire world. But it is apparant that not only did this woman not learn manners growing up, no one taught her to share either.

Actually this type of behavior is counterproductive to the dive industry, I don’t care how hard up someone is having to compete for customers. I would never disparage another dive operation in this manner, I would do as our instructor did. When asked about other LDS, he just said, I don’t really know about those guys, I can just tell you I do this. Those that disparage another individual in front of their students bring down the overall professionalism of the dive industry, as well as belittling themselves at the same time.

I do plan on writing Joe during this week to mention her unprofessional behavior and her agency about the events I witnessed.

It doesn't sound like this person had much room to talk. I have made comments to instructors concerning practices that I saw as dangerous. Once I even made some comments to the family of some students because I thought the instructor was working pretty hard to get the students killed.

As I said, Now I pretty much avoid anyplace where there's much training going on. The diving sucks while they're there and I can't watch half the things they do and keep my mouth shut so I just go someplace else and let the buyer beware thing take over. LOL

 

[MikeFerrara]

I've been to Haigh when Scuba Emporium shows up...

LOL

 

[RDP]

Why would one go to a quarry during student high-tide and expect vis! I doesn't matter how much time is spent training in a pool prior to OW check dives. It is a new experience for the student. Even the most experienced divers were newbies once.

As for the actions of this angry instructor, some people will never develop social skills or any form of professionalism.

 

[icyman]

Why would one go to a quarry during student high-tide and expect vis! I doesn't matter how much time is spent training in a pool prior to OW check dives. It is a new experience for the student. Even the most experienced divers were newbies once.

As for the actions of this angry instructor, some people will never develop social skills or any form of professionalism.

Good points!