Should Cert Cards be for life? My cert cards seem to be worthless!

[Basking Ridge Diver]

Should cert cards be for life? Only if you keep up your diving. Otherwise there should be re-certification courses, as indeed there are.

The issue is Re-certification is it is up to the diver. As well in my opinion - a recert does not prove you will not panic underwater - that comes with familiarity of the water, experience and in my opinion confidence (not hubris). And I think that is the crux of the issue. Medical issues and panic are what kills - eliminate those issues and I believe diving will get safer.

I would have no qualms about stopping my diving for several years and jumping right back into diving - without a recertification review. In my opinion the skills I learned in OW class and the diving I have done are implanted in my brain and as long as I do a couple easy dives to get back into it - with drills on those dives. I see no reason for me to be recertified - I have a full appreciation of mother nature and the dangers of diving in cold murky waters.

I am not sure that is the case with every diver (vacation diver or not) - if that is the issue we are trying to fix.

If it is revenue driven or something else behind the curtain - I dont have the answer.

 

[bobozr]

As a DM and instructor, I dive a lot. 150-200 dives a year. When I travel I tend not to identify myself as a pro. However, I am almost always welcomed as a "good diver". Good dive ops and good crews will treat you according to the level you present yourself. At a recent dive trip in the Caribbean, the DM was questioning and briefing the dive group about the usual; last dive date, depth, number of dives. My answers were, tuesday, depth of 200 or so, and around 2000. They looked at me (with my own gear as opposed to rental) and were like "ok...cool". And they were awesome.
As a pro.... my job is to do what you need. If you want me to baby you....I can do that. If you want me to ignore you... just let me know.

very few people would agree for an ongoing program of required dives and refreshers. Diving is a hobby. Diving is fun. Diving compete with other leisure activities. As an industry we need to focus on making diving more accessible and affordable.

As a dive Instructor and Dive Boat Captain, I can say that every trip has one or more divers on board that are not having fun. Most of he time it is pretty evident that they were poorly trained to begin with or at least, way out of their element on a salt-water boat trip. Their apprehension sometimes leads to occasional confrontation when crew members attempt to help them or head off impending situations. Sorry bout that, but we are selling fun and losing a diver tends to cast a pall upon the festivities. We want you to come back to the boat safely and return to our shop on your next trip to our waters.

Good divers are always training. Making it mandatory will not change a thing except the drop-out rate he is concerned about. Adding to the cost of maintaining a card which basically allows you to buy air, will push many more away.

 

[dleiss]

I have been diving, mainly the Caribbean and Hawaii, for 25 years; AOW, Nitrox. Usually treated good, especially after second dive. If not, I switch operations because I do notbuy packages. I dive two computers andexpect to come up with less than 1,000 lbs. of air. I also tip well and give itto the dive master.

 

[cpwomer]

Sounds to me you are board. You have obviously spent a whole lot more than me on this sport. But my expectations are much lower so every dive is GREAT. I got my Cert in 1978. So you can guess which one I have. Since than I have so many logbooks I stopped buying them. To me every dive is a memory to enjoy. I do it for the beauty and exercise myself. I tried chasing that ball around the course, NOT... I even own a compressor, in case I end up in a remote area. But I like depending on good reputable dive shops. Maybe get you and the wife should buy your own dive boat and invite people like me or equivalent to your experience and create your own fun. As far as Cert Card you train for what you like to do and you do it well. All the training in the world won't create the FUN, that's up to you. As far as re-cert program I disagree. We don't need anymore Govt over-sight in our lives. Now you want the Govt to regulate what little fun life has without taxation and regulation. I maybe 60 years old now but I haven't forgot how to dive safely yet. I'm still alive after all these years. Still having FUN!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kenackr]

My view is not shared by all, but it relates to the ability of an individual to recognize what they need to dive safely. The fact that a person decides to engage in a recreational activity in an environment that can easily end his or her life, should prompt a thinking human to want to bolster their skill level to previous certification levels if they have been away from diving for a while. Since I dive infrequently, I take refreshers on my own accord knowing that all humans lose learned information if they do not use it regularly. No one has to prompt me or push me to do it. There is no shame or guilt on my part in asking for and getting a refresher, because I view it as a survival skill.

While I feel strongly about this view for my own safety, I would not seek to impose it on another diver. On the other hand, if I had a dive buddy who was going to dive with me, and knew they had not dived in a while, I'd tell him or her I was scheduling a refresher and invite them to join me.

Sometimes all that is needed is to remind folks that skill set maintenance is indeed a matter of life & death, and it's their choice.

 

[NAM001]

You make an exellent point. The refresher system should work. But not every one does it cause it is not required. I would be all for requireing anual refresher for OW card holders but not AOW HOLDERS. Again to make that work The training system has to change to insure you cant back to back OW and AOW and get the AOW card with 10 dives in a pool. (said sarcastically). No system will work 100% but i think that some issues (at least the gross things) would start to go away when it comes to lack of skills. (lack of or forgotton). Perhaps the refressher should be the same price as the AOW course. Take the class and if you have the prereq logged dives in your book you get an upgrade to AOW. After all every one says AOW is nothing more than OW with experience dives points added to it. I do agree there is a point that refresher should not be required. and that would be all cards senior to OW. Nitrox should not haveb to be refreshed. Master DM should not have to be refreshed.

It seems to me they do have a sort of re-certification, in the form of the refresher course, which may be required or may be optional, depending on place and circumstance.

I am a recreational vacation diver. I may make two dive trips in a year or I may go a few years without diving. I will request (and pay for!) a refresher after an extended absence from diving. I enjoy diving, but it's not my life. I have no intention of dropping out of diving while my health lasts, but I also have no intention of diving more often than I do. My cert card means that I took the course at some time in the past, and my log book shows whether or not I need a refresher.

And I agree with the posters who point out that the reviews on this site will help people choose dive operators who will treat them well and provide the level of service they want. Whether you want a hands-on operation that will set up your gear for you and hold your hand through the dive, or an operation that will just take you to the dive site and let you dive, odds are good you can find what you want if you read the reviews.

Should cert cards be for life? Only if you keep up your diving. Otherwise there should be re-certification courses, as indeed there are.

 

[olphart]

FWIW, and I'm jumping in at the end here so this may have come up. The flying club I belong to welcomes any member to attend the ground school course sessions at any time, no charge. I've been doing it for occasional brush ups since 1979. Would this work in an LDS?

 

[drrich2]

Looking over different thread topics on Scuba Board, sometimes it seems the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

1.) There are threads lamenting the limited & allegedly lower numbers of active divers, trying to brainstorm ways to entice more people to take up scuba, and stay in it.

2.) Now we've got this thread wanting to make certifications expire & require mandatory renewal.

3.) There are threads pushing for personal responsibility and condemning unsafe practices (e.g.: cave diving without formal cave training & certification) on the grounds it could lead to the dreaded government regulation. And people talk about how licensing schemes end up becoming cash cows for government agencies yet do relatively little to ensure quality (e.g.: driver's licenses).

4.) Now we've got this thread calling for more regulations (mandated renewals). Why people continue to have faith in such is hard to see.

5.) When someone posts in Accidents & Incidents or Near Misses/Lessons Learning about a trip mishap, and tries to externalize blame (e.g.: the dive master should've been watching us closer, etc...), that person is apt to be confronted strongly, and told something to the effect that you are a certified adult, you are responsible for your own safety/dive/self.

6.) Now we've got this thread with a number of Big Brother fans wanting to make cert.s temporary because letting OW-trained & certified adults make their own decisions about whether & when to get refresher training is unacceptable. After all, they may not choose to do what I think they should do, so let's regulate their choice in the matter away.

Perhaps it's time for a new distinctive specialty; Adult Diver. Course work will focus on issues very pertinent to diving such as personal responsibility, having the option to research & inform yourself so as to make informed decisions if you choose to do so, and respecting others' right to do the same. Students will be taught to avoid panic at the prospect of making their own dive choices without added paternalistic regulatory dictates.

Richard.

 

[NAM001]

LIke the comment drich2. All sorts of holes in it. I think you position centers on the concept that the attempt is to make the newby meet our definition of safer. Partially so, The bigger part is to make those who they are diving with safer. As far as accidents and incidents goes. The plant I work with has no accidents. Not because we have no accidents its because they never make it on paper. We get all sorts of praise for our safe workplace as proven by our accident record. The my way or the highway position doesnt float either. Most of the issues center around having to dive with someone who should not be in the water because of lack of skills or no longer profiecient at them. So the choice being presented is ....do you do something to promote, after an absence, an avenue to regain lost skills.............or.............is it a,,,, lets not say anything and have it become OUR responsibility to be safe for your self and the buddy. I think most would favor you more if you slandered obama than to refuse to get in the water with someone because of what ever reason. There is more concern that the unqualified gets to dive$$$$$ than the concern towards the safety of others. I know cause I have refused to dive with some. And one would swear that I ruined the day for all on the boat. So lets also revisit the threads about anyone can call the dive for any reason. BTW the one I refused to dive with joined another pair for a 3some and when hitting the water was ooa,,,,because both his air was off and the reg was not attached on the tank... unable to manually inflate the bcd had to have crew assistance to get back onboard.

 

[drrich2]

So, the main thrust of mandatory re-certification is raising the quality of insta-buddies on dive boats? That would be an interesting premise. I don't think that's what's driving all the pro-recert. people, but it's an interesting angle regardless.

I question the likelihood that it would do much in that regard. Some, but not a lot consistently.

It would stop a lot of occasional casual divers, and hurt business at a lot of tourist destinations. A lot of cruise ship divers will book an excursion & dive an island or two, but if they had to re-cert. to do it, would decide that's the added burden that breaks the camel's back, so to speak. Some of these poor island operators need that business. We'll just see 're-cert. mills' basically collecting a new tax by issuing easy re-cert.s.

There's also the argument that divers should be sufficiently self-reliant as to not require a quality buddying on point protecting them through their dive, nor are you responsibility for your buddy's deficiencies. You should render reasonable assistance, yes, but that doesn't mean you have to chase people down or become a de facto dive master with a student.

Then there's the issue of in essence creating a tax and hassle on large numbers of people to get at the fraction you take issue with, with an intervention that likely won't make the big difference you would hope.

And when the lackluster results of all this lead to carping & griping on Scuba Board and elsewhere, why the answer to this pressing problem will of course be...more regulation!!!

Richard.

P.S.: Re: Obama, who needs slander? The truth alone could keep me going for weeks...