KevinNM
Contributor
'We've been getting back space shuttles dinged by bipod ramp foam for years. It's just foam, so don't get all excited.'
Should Cert Cards be for life? My cert cards seem to be worthless!
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Living is a risky behavior. Last I checked everyone eventually dies (= 100% fatal condition). Some behavior is riskier than others, and some behaviors than are known to be "too risky", as defined by the controlling agency, become the defacto norm by the 'normalization of deviance'.
The husband and wife pair are diving the way they were taught, not slipping into substandard procedures. Now if either of them dives with a different buddy the situation is likely to be much different. That said, the husband and wife might be safer if they used currently standard gear (spg, octo, etc.)
I was trained to buddy breathe and have demonstrated that I am very comfortable with it even after many years of not doing it. My son was not so trained and I would only use buddy breathing with him as a last resort. This is an example of different training based on different standard gear configurations.
Going back to the original question of lifetime certs. Some people intuitively 'get' scuba diving and some people just don't. The former need training, but it tends to stick well, the latter often can (TSandM comes to mind) become excellent divers with lots of practice and review while some will never make a good diver no matter how much they try. To me it comes down to knowing yourself and taking personal responsibility.
The husband and wife pair are diving the way they were taught, not slipping into substandard procedures. Now if either of them dives with a different buddy the situation is likely to be much different. That said, the husband and wife might be safer if they used currently standard gear (spg, octo, etc.)
I was trained to buddy breathe and have demonstrated that I am very comfortable with it even after many years of not doing it. My son was not so trained and I would only use buddy breathing with him as a last resort. This is an example of different training based on different standard gear configurations.
Going back to the original question of lifetime certs. Some people intuitively 'get' scuba diving and some people just don't. The former need training, but it tends to stick well, the latter often can (TSandM comes to mind) become excellent divers with lots of practice and review while some will never make a good diver no matter how much they try. To me it comes down to knowing yourself and taking personal responsibility.
Bob DBF
Contributor
I was, and sometimes still am, what some would call a risky diver. However, I don't necessarily agree, but that is on a case by case basis in my mind. Most of the people perceive risk from their own training, experience, and fears. Over the years I quit trying to get people to understand my point of view and just told them I was crazy, I did spend years on submarines so it's an easy sell. Risky becomes a secondary issue to crazy in most folks minds.
Before someone says another's diving is too risky, sit down and listen why the diver does not think there is too much risk, you might learn something. Not saying that all risky behavior is justified, just see what is going on before making a judgment, not all people are the same.
Was it risky to do deco dives with steel 72's, no SPG's, and not even holding any c-card?
Now, that would be no. How about the '60's and '70's or earlier?
Bob
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I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.
Ana
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I understood your question but interpreted the statement as your opinion of them being lucky.
It is actually an interesting situation, these couple may not be more skilled than others but in order to say they are LESS skilled, one has to believe their system is completely flawed and only luck is keeping them from having bad consequences.
I believe they are a strange pair for sure. but not less skilled than me. The way I perform my dives produces a great deal of pleasure for me, seems like they haven't found a reason to change, they must be fine with what they get from their dives.
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... and that is why I said it's difficult to make comparisons ... and there's more to it than simply "abbreviated standards" ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
---------- Post added January 27th, 2015 at 02:33 PM ----------
The risk in this case is not diving with SPG's. In the old days ... when they were trained ... people didn't have SPG's, but they did have J-valves to (in theory) provide them with reserve air. Nowadays you would be lucky indeed to even find a functioning J-valve, because they're obsolete technology. It isn't a function of skill ... or training ... it's a function of diving in a manner that you don't know what your reserve air is.
These two are diving on an assumption, which has borne out over the years, that when he runs out of air, she will always have enough to get them both to the surface. But what if, one day, that proves not to be the case? Without a way of knowing how much she has in her tank, they are ... in fact ... engaging in risky behavior, regardless of training or expertise.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
I don’t understand, what else is there? I’m not in the training business so these are sincere questions. To me abbreviated standards include duration and instructor face time, real swim tests without gear, time in the water to habituate, some minor level of harassment to evolve skills and for instructors to assess temperament, and the level of academic training typical in old-school classes.
You are always going to get a variation in instructor communications skills, which probably haven’t changed. The presentation quality has to be a lot better now… have you ever looked at the 1963 US Navy Diving Manual or New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving? Kind’a primitive.
I guess the legal climate is MUCH different, but that “should” be improving the quality of training rather than dumbing it down (ASSumption here). Are students worse now in terms of watermanship skills, science and math, or motivation?
DaleC
Contributor
That's weird? I posted in the solo thread and it came out here???
Bob DBF
Contributor
In the old days you may or may not have J valve, depending on how new the tank was. I didn't have my LP 95 up in Washington or you could have seen a functioning J valve, and I have two more on old 72's and twinset 72's with a J valve, they all work.
The skill and training was to anticipate an OOA and avoid it (gas planning), and if you screwed the pooch, be able to deal with an OOA without panic. At the time, skin divers included divers with and without SCUBA.
Bob
At least on the US Pacific Coast, J-valves (lever reserves) were in the minority probably about 25%. Not sure if other areas were higher but I recall articles in Skin Diver Magazine that said they were less than a third of sales.
They werent very dependable. Swimming through Kelp and small bumps would push them down without the diver noticing and the hold-back pressure varied all over the place. They were a lot more expensive and required a lot more maintenance.
The main thing that made it work was poor regulator performance at low tank pressures. You would notice a slow increase in inhalation resistance giving you plenty of time to surface at about 60'/minute and there were no safety stop recommendations then.
Modern balanced regulators only give you a few breaths warning until you feel like you are sucking a vacuum.
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