Solo Cave Diving

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

Who said anything about legislating things? Or being "dependent" on someone else? There are a lot of things I can by myself, but having someone else to assist me can make matters considerably easier. Does that mean I'm "dependent" on the other person?

I look at solo cave diving the way GUE looks at CCR and sidemount. It's a technique to be applied to certain circumstances where the risks of diving WITH a buddy outweight the risks of doing without. Those dives represent a very small fraction of the cave diving that is out there to be done. For dives where it is feasible, better risk mitigation ought to be employed.

Nobody ought to be diving in a cave if they are dependent on someone else to execute the dive safely. There's a difference between dependence and insurance. I like insurance.

I clarified the first paragraph to reflect that you were not going that way. I went that way as kind of a catch all. I think, in the current day, people tend to feel if something goes wrong it has to be the other persons fault. Heck look at the Wes Skiles suit that was filed. You and I agree more than we disagree and it wasn't my intent to say otherwise.

I think writing with our own perspectives we tend to read how we each perceive an issue. I do prefer solo diving. I also believe, philosophically speaking, "I am my Brothers Keeper". I still give you the choice to make any decision you wish as long as it does not harm me. If you are hung up in something, a buddy is indeed a better option to get untangled. Being solo I have to keep in mind, slow and methodical so I don't make a mess. Both are legitimate styles of diving except where restricted by ordinance.

Both have a lot of self initiated responsibility. If I dive solo I am responsible to get my butt home safely for my family and loved ones. When diving with a buddy, I feel a responsibility to get you home to your family and loved ones. However, I don't relieve you, or you me, of the responsibility to get yourself home no matter who we dive with.

We do disagree in the usage of solo vs buddy. I like a good long solo dive in a big cave, not just small passages as my goal is not mission or task oriented. I am months from being 50. My "labs" are great. I am not a gym rat, but I am still in good shape. A medical event is less likely because of that, but of course, not out of the question. My skills and implementation of my plan are my responsibility to keep safe.

As far as goal or mission oriented dives, GUE and WKPP made huge safety strides in just that. Making a solid team and reducing risks is great for full time teams and goal oriented teams. From there we adapt our methods with the dive we are making.

I apologize if you took my comments wrong. I only meant to cover a bigger picture as less experienced cave divers are reading this and I do feel strongly about personal responsibility. That was imparted to me early on and I feel that is important to note when I have the opportunity. Mark

 

[Dsix36]

I strongly believe that any diver not mentally prepared to be solo on a dive is inadequate to the task and using another diver as a crutch. However this fact doesn't stop me realizing diving with a competent buddy is always the best policy. ---- Mark Chase

The only way to dive solo and remain safe, is if you refuse to dive with an idiot. ----- Dave Sutton

I think these two guys sum it up pretty damn well!!!!

 

[karstdvr]

It's arguable and probably can't be proven . . . but if diving with a buddy PREVENTS the breaking of one of the other 5 rules, wouldn't that be considered a significant step toward safety? If Steve Berman had had a buddy on his last dive, who said, "Hey, I've hit thirds, let's get OUT of here," might he be with us? If you had a powerful way to ensure following the rules, wouldn't that be worthwhile?

I have to tend to agree. Steve was a friend of mine,and it stung hard to put together pieces of the accident,but if had a buddy,his probability of survivability would have been higher. When you are heavily involved in surveying,you lose track of time. Was that what happened to Steve? Did he get hung up? Either way he ended up 100ft short of his stages bottle before he perished,you have to think if he had a buddy he would still be here.

How about Ron Simmons? More likely a dive buddy would have prevented the accident.

Mark Fyvie?

So where I have to agree that solo diving doesn't cause the accident,it is definitely a Murphy factor. Having that buddy could have played a roll in preventing a fatality.

 

[kensuf]

Both have a lot of self initiated responsibility. If I dive solo I am responsible to get my butt home safely for my family and loved ones. When diving with a buddy, I feel a responsibility to get you home to your family and loved ones. However, I don't relieve you, or you me, of the responsibility to get yourself home no matter who we dive with.

This is probably the most intelligent comment in this entire thread. And some of Kelly's stuff too. However, I am willing to bet you acknowledge and accept the risks when you go solo diving.

Now, let me ask a question.. And be honest. Do you always install and run a primary reel on every single cave dive?

If the answer is yes then you are doing better than 80-90% of the trained cave divers out there.* If the answer is no, then welcome to the real world. So why is it acceptable to include always run a reel in accident analysis, but not acceptable to include any discussion about the risks of solo diving?

ken
* my 80-90% numbers are just based on what I have observed at the tourist caves where it seems like only one in every five teams runs a reel.

---------- Post added November 11th, 2013 at 09:20 AM ----------

So where I have to agree that solo diving doesn't cause the accident,it is definitely a Murphy factor. Having that buddy could have played a roll in preventing a fatality.

Its called an "indirect contributing factor". Just like training. It's not the lack of training that kills you, it's the lack of air planning and running a guideline because you don't know better.

Depth is a fuzzy one because it is both direct and indirect. Obviously very deep leads to hypercapnia and oxtox, but the grey zone just leads to dumb mistakes that compound. Guideline, air, and lights are all direct causes.

ok, I think I am going diving now.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

This is probably the most intelligent comment in this entire thread. And some of Kelly's stuff too. However, I am willing to bet you acknowledge and accept the risks when you go solo diving.

Now, let me ask a question.. And be honest. Do you always install and run a primary reel on every single cave dive?

If the answer is yes then you are doing better than 80-90% of the trained cave divers out there.* If the answer is no, then welcome to the real world. So why is it acceptable to include always run a reel in accident analysis, but not acceptable to include any discussion about the risks of solo diving?

ken
* my 80-90% numbers are just based on what I have observed at the tourist caves where it seems like only one in every five teams runs a reel.

---------- Post added November 11th, 2013 at 09:20 AM ----------



Its called an "indirect contributing factor". Just like training. It's not the lack of training that kills you, it's the lack of air planning and running a guideline because you don't know better.

Depth is a fuzzy one because it is both direct and indirect. Obviously very deep leads to hypercapnia and oxtox, but the grey zone just leads to dumb mistakes that compound. Guideline, air, and lights are all direct causes.

ok, I think I am going diving now.

When I am at Jackson Blue I may or may not run a line. If there are several and multiple people there I may not as long as it is daytime and good weather. 1 more line can be a problem. If I am there toward dusk, when the weather may block the sun, or any time I am the only one there, I run a line.

At Twin, Hole, Gator Hole, Hidden, Ebro, or Devil's Hole I always run a line. At Vortex, I do not, run a line from open water, for obvious reasons. I fear that may create an issue if someone follows me in and I have to remove it when I get out. When i go past the grate, I run a line.

I think there are times when common sense can dictate slight deviations but it is on me when that happens and if things go south. I never, don't run a line, because I am lazy or (and some may argue) complacent. As I do dive solo I know the whats, but I also know the whys. Just knowing the mechanics and making a ton of dives does not necessarily equate to experience. Mark

 

[Garth]

I strongly believe that any diver not mentally prepared to be solo on a dive is inadequate to the task and using another diver as a crutch. However this fact doesn't stop me realizing diving with a competent buddy is always the best policy. ---- Mark Chase

The only way to dive solo and remain safe, is if you refuse to dive with an idiot. ----- Dave Sutton

I think these two guys sum it up pretty damn well!!!!

Thanks for pulling these out. I hadn't read those specific posts and because Dave has been banned from nearly all forums I only hear things from him on his Facebook page.

I am always assessing myself on how I can improve my buddy skills for those around me.

There needs to be trust.


Garth

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

This is probably the most intelligent comment in this entire thread. And some of Kelly's stuff too. However, I am willing to bet you acknowledge and accept the risks when you go solo diving.

Now, let me ask a question.. And be honest. Do you always install and run a primary reel on every single cave dive?

If the answer is yes then you are doing better than 80-90% of the trained cave divers out there.* If the answer is no, then welcome to the real world. So why is it acceptable to include always run a reel in accident analysis, but not acceptable to include any discussion about the risks of solo diving?

ken
* my 80-90% numbers are just based on what I have observed at the tourist caves where it seems like only one in every five teams runs a reel.

---------- Post added November 11th, 2013 at 09:20 AM ----------



Its called an "indirect contributing factor". Just like training. It's not the lack of training that kills you, it's the lack of air planning and running a guideline because you don't know better.

Depth is a fuzzy one because it is both direct and indirect. Obviously very deep leads to hypercapnia and oxtox, but the grey zone just leads to dumb mistakes that compound. Guideline, air, and lights are all direct causes.

ok, I think I am going diving now.

As far as the other part of your question, I don't have an issue with discussing solo diving. I believe that diving by yourself does not equate to a solo diver. The why and whats, and of course experience have much more to do with being a solo diver.

Being comfortable enough to dive solo and to recognize when something is a real emergency and a perceived emergency are also important. If I am in a small sidemount tunnel and my primary light (canister) goes out...that does not equate to an emergency. I have 2 back ups on my harness and 2 or 3 more in a pouch. These back up lights are more powerful than my primary 50w Halogen was in 1999. Hence, I have plenty of light to continue on my recreational and enjoyable cave dive. Even in big tunnel on my way out I have plenty of light and extras. I check each of these before each dive and every year I replace the batteries even if I never used the light. That is part of being a solo diver.....I don't care if the battery may be good, after a year they get replaced.

To argue it is dangerous, or causal of incidents is not accurate. As others have said, another person to assist on certain issues is absolutely a help.

To argue it is extremely safe is also subject to perception and of course the individual diver. It is not for everybody, and absolutely not for many. But it can be, and is done, regularly and safely.

Like every other aspect of this sport is can be very subjective. Mark

 

[pedeseigne]

Hi
this is a long and old discussion. With always the same answers and the same opposite camps. Pro or versus...!
In fact, no serious studies had never show that is more dangerous to dive solo and more safety to dive with buddy.
No one, never...!
The danger is to have the wrong attitude when you have the problem. A wrong attitude in solo diving would result, in the worst case with one death, and in buddy dive with 2 or several deaths...!
In all outdoor activities you have solo or team practice. Sailors cross the oceans alone, mountaineer climb at the top of peak alone and some cave divers go in caves alone.
Danger isn't to be alone or to be with a buddy (good or not..). Danger is to have a bad attitude...!
In Europa, many divers dive with buddy but the most parts dive alone. And we do not have more accidents than you...!

For Hasenmayer, he had realise some epics dives, very deep dives alone..! And he had a very stupid accident. It's the same for Excley, alone or not alone, at these depths, even with a partner, you are always alone...! This is another subject in fact...!

Best

pe

 

[MalibuJerry]

The point about statistics and that this is an old discussion are both right. Here is the thing--every diver who has ever died in a cave died because they stopped living. The proximate cause is usually causes and accident analysis is useful, but oft times based on speculation and conditioned on the categories one is allowed to work with.

The most important data we don't have is the counter-factual, namely, how many cave divers would have died in caves but for the fact that their team mate pointed something out that prevented a cascade of causes leading to a fatality? That is really the key statistic and we don't know the answer.

What we do know is that the cave environment is one of the least forgiving environments for diver error or equipment failure. We also know that training with a team mate who makes solid decisions and who is concerned with personal and team safety will provide a second set of eyes and brains which will enhance safety on average. There will be the exception where the action of one causes the team to spiral out of control, but on average safety will be enhanced. This is the lesson of the WKKP.

So, I think that saying that solo cave diving is somehow not much riskier than team cave diving is really distorting the reality and could lead to someone reading this thread thinking there is little to no difference between the two. We all take risks. We should not kid ourselves as to what they are.

 

[PfcAJ]

every diver who has ever died in a cave died because they stopped living.

Wut??