SP Hydros Pro vs Halcyon Eclipse

[Rodrigo Carvalho]

Maybe this will help you. I just got back from a trip.

One of our DMs who was cave certified and working on becoming a cave instructor was diving a H bp/w. He was absolutely raving about my wife's and my DSS rig. In fact all the DMs who were diving various bp/w were checking out my rig. In the end, my wife got mad at me for buying better gear than DM's were using....

I had to pull up webpages to show her prices in order to settle her down.

It was me raving your really nice BP/W!

 

[tbone1004]

No, you are attacking better products for cheaper sideline business type. As it was pointed out earlier, there are markets for cheap/budget stuff and there is market for high end brand name equipment.

What you get for a brand name such as SP, a company that has been in business for much than you have been around with cumulative worldwide experience that exceed sideline home business. You can count on SP anywhere in the world not the others. The innovative features the Hydros BC brings and the RD that spanned several years cost money and only a company of the stature of SP can afford to do it, not the hobbyist part time wanna be playhouse side-liner types.

It is one thing not to be able to afford to pay $300, but to attack its value and contributions to diving is totally something different. I can't afford it now and probably won't be able to afford it in the coming months but I don't attack it to lower its value.

so again, what does that actually bring you? is every scubapro shop in the world going to have parts to service it if any of it's "innovations" fail? and what innovations does it have that are worth $300? You haven't listed one other than saying spending 60% more on Scubapro, literally just because it's Scubapro, is worth it

 

[mattia_v]

No, you are attacking better products for cheaper sideline business type. As it was pointed out earlier, there are markets for cheap/budget stuff and there is market for high end brand name equipment.

What you get for a brand name such as SP, a company that has been in business for much than you have been around with cumulative worldwide experience that exceed sideline home business. You can count on SP anywhere in the world not the others. The innovative features the Hydros BC brings and the RD that spanned several years cost money and only a company of the stature of SP can afford to do it, not the hobbyist part time wanna be playhouse side-liner types.

It is one thing not to be able to afford to pay $300, but to attack its value and contributions to diving is totally something different. I can't afford it now and probably won't be able to afford it in the coming months but I don't attack it to lower its value.

I have zero vested interests. I can afford the 300 bucks. That's really not the issue. So we're clear, I'm using value w to mean "relative worth, utility, or importance" here. You can actually find the Hydros Pro in EU web shops for around 630 euros, so actually only 100-150 more than I paid for a backplate/wing setup (dang VAT). Not really a significantly different market in terms of price. A few points, then:

1) Backplate/Wings are not cheap/budget. They're very good value and highly fit-for-purpose.

2) ScubaPro (and Atomic, Halcyon) are high-end. They have built a strong brand and good products. A lot of this is marketing and price, not value. Plenty of wing manufacturers have very good service, and some have equally extensive worldwide networks (such as Apeks). I seriously doubt that even ScubaPro will be able to help if part of your BC goes bust on a dive vacation in a remote location, even if the LDS is an authorised dealer. Plus a lot of BP/W parts are generic (depending on brand; i.e. dump valves, inflators) and if you are paranoid, you could take along (affordable) spares and a patch kit and be able to fix it yourself, wherever.

3) What relevant innovative features do you see in the Hydros?

I see a scant few, and many are minor design considerations that I can admire from a product design perspective, but don't feel would add to my diving. So we're clear, if I had to choose a jacket BC, I would honestly probably choose the Hydros. It looks like a very good product overall. But it's not better for me. Let's have a look at the Hydros marketing claims below, reviewed critically vs. a BP/W.

• Ultra Durable: Patented Injection Molded Monprene® Gel Harness is extremely resistant to UV, chemicals and abrasion. The fabric-free harness uses no velcro or zippers.

Sounds nice, grippy. Probably comfortable. Durability remains to be seen, considering it's a new application in a new product. Webbing has a proven track record as well, is cheap to replace when eventually needed. Single buckle - can't get much simpler than that. And backplates are pretty tough, too.

• Instant Dry: Ideal for travel due to less water retention and lower post-dive weight.

Nice feature, not super innovative. Many others have the same (e.g. Apeks PSD wings). And simple cordura dries very quickly anyway; the limiting factor for added wet packing weight for us is always the wetsuit.

• "BC-4-Life" Modular Design: Customizable to add/remove weight systems, straps and pouches. Extended lifespan due to simplified repairs. Virtually every component, including buckles, can be replaced without stitching.

The same is true for a BP/W, only more so (options from other manufacturers).

• 3D Ergonomic Design: Conforms to your body shape for maximum comfort.

Neither I or my petite girlfriend find a backplate uncomfortable at all. This surprised her to no end. May be a selling point for some individual divers, however. There's always DSS for different pattern plates for people with longer/shorter backs.

• Lightweight: Advanced materials keep weight low.

Have not been able to find actual weight on this. My setup comes in at 3.5kg, including the alum plate (= less weight needed to sink me). Good enough for me.

• Neutrally Buoyant: Near-Zero inherent buoyancy requires less lead, resulting in better buoyancy control and much more enjoyable diving.

BP/W neutral to negative, depending on plate.

• Body Grip Gel: Prevents BC from shifting and riding up.

Two words: crotch strap. This actually sounds unpleasant; one of the things I love most about the BP/W underwater is the feeling that it's hardly there at all due to minimal webbing and a softer crotch strap.

• Dual-Compound Backplate: Provides the ultimate in stability and comfort. Single tank band system allows for easier assembly.

I like the stability of a dual tank band. No discomfort on a hard plate for me.

• Torso Flex Zone: Auto-adjusts to your torso length for excellent comfort and freedom of movement.

Solution looking for a problem I haven't experienced,

• Articulated Shoulder Straps: Allow straps to adjust to your body shape to achieve a snug fit.

2" webbing fits me and the girlfriend just fine, and tailored to our specific needs. For a rental fleet that requires quick and easy adjustments I could see this being helpful.

• Kit-Up Assist: Holds shoulder straps open for easy donning.

Non-issue for me.

• Cross-Flow Channel: Unrestricted internal airflow reduces air trapping for enhanced maneuverability and easy deflation at any angle.

This sounds interesting, but perhaps also more necessary given the very large lift capacity (a Hydros my size would have 40 lbs of lift, and I already think my 30lb wing is actually unnecessarily large for the diving I do).

• 2-Stage Inflation: Tri-bungee system controls air distribution to maintain a compact shape under water and high lift capacity at the surface.

So basically a bungee'd wing of the type most wing manufacturers seem to have abandoned? See above.

• Dorsal Weight-Wing: Anti-abrasion and instant dry. Optimal "Outboard" trim pockets.

Wing. Trim pockets. Good, not innovative or exciting.

• Buckle Weight System: Simple, safe and reliable quick-release buckles offer a fixed location for easy one-hand operation.

So do mine.

• Multi-Mount Accessory Matrix: Multiple D-Rings and mounting points for a knife + light + SMB + hoses + crotch strap and much more.

I can add whatever I want, and remove the ones I don't. With ease.

• Smart-Pack Design: Folding shoulder and waist straps pack into the wing, creating an unbelievably compact package for easy transport and storage.

I can roll up the wings and stack two backplates pretty compactly.

So it's a nicely designed jacket that addresses some of the issues many other jackets have (mostly comfort/ergonomics, and riding up by having a grippier monoprene harnass), and borrows a few notes from the BP/W design ethos (modularity, back-inflate, trim pockets, bungee'd wing, packability). The comfort thing may well be important to some, so you'd have to try it out in a store to see if it makes a difference for you.

 

[dmaziuk]

Are different brand backplates compatible with different brand wings? For example, is a Halcyon harness compatible with a DSS wing and vice versa? Just out of curiosity.

What @tbone1004 said. I had to cut the camband slots in my backplate to match those in my wing -- not a problem if it's Alu backplate and you're not afraid of power tools. DRiS trianta is a wing that has no camband slots at all, you'd have to use an STA with that. Though you could probably cut the fabric and trim the edges and/or find suitable 2-2.5" grommets... If you're not game to do something like that, better buy a whole kit.

 

[BoltSnap]

so again, what does that actually bring you? is every scubapro shop in the world going to have parts to service it if any of it's "innovations" fail? and what innovations does it have that are worth $300? You haven't listed one other than saying spending 60% more on Scubapro, literally just because it's Scubapro, is worth it

Go and read the product description and you will find out the innovations it brings in BC design and functionality. There is no other company represented in the whole wide world as SP is!!

I don't understand the relevance of "every scubapro shop in the world going to have parts to service it if any of it's "innovations" fail?" in this context at all. Not every part and most likely they don't have to because of the reliability and the very few issues with SP products in general. BTW, not every Mercedes/BMW/etc. shop in the world going to have parts to service their respective products if any of their "innovations" fail.

 

[BoltSnap]

I have zero vested interests. I can afford the 300 bucks. That's really not the issue. So we're clear, I'm using value w to mean "relative worth, utility, or importance" here. You can actually find the Hydros Pro in EU web shops for around 630 euros, so actually only 100-150 more than I paid for a backplate/wing setup (dang VAT). Not really a significantly different market in terms of price. A few points, then:

1) Backplate/Wings are not cheap/budget. They're very good value and highly fit-for-purpose.

2) ScubaPro (and Atomic, Halcyon) are high-end. They have built a strong brand and good products. A lot of this is marketing and price, not value. Plenty of wing manufacturers have very good service, and some have equally extensive worldwide networks (such as Apeks). I seriously doubt that even ScubaPro will be able to help if part of your BC goes bust on a dive vacation in a remote location, even if the LDS is an authorised dealer. Plus a lot of BP/W parts are generic (depending on brand; i.e. dump valves, inflators) and if you are paranoid, you could take along (affordable) spares and a patch kit and be able to fix it yourself, wherever.

3) What relevant innovative features do you see in the Hydros?

I see a scant few, and many are minor design considerations that I can admire from a product design perspective, but don't feel would add to my diving. So we're clear, if I had to choose a jacket BC, I would honestly probably choose the Hydros. It looks like a very good product overall. But it's not better for me. Let's have a look at the Hydros marketing claims below, reviewed critically vs. a BP/W.

• Ultra Durable: Patented Injection Molded Monprene® Gel Harness is extremely resistant to UV, chemicals and abrasion. The fabric-free harness uses no velcro or zippers.

Sounds nice, grippy. Probably comfortable. Durability remains to be seen, considering it's a new application in a new product. Webbing has a proven track record as well, is cheap to replace when eventually needed. Single buckle - can't get much simpler than that. And backplates are pretty tough, too.

• Instant Dry: Ideal for travel due to less water retention and lower post-dive weight.

Nice feature, not super innovative. Many others have the same (e.g. Apeks PSD wings). And simple cordura dries very quickly anyway; the limiting factor for added wet packing weight for us is always the wetsuit.

• "BC-4-Life" Modular Design: Customizable to add/remove weight systems, straps and pouches. Extended lifespan due to simplified repairs. Virtually every component, including buckles, can be replaced without stitching.

The same is true for a BP/W, only more so (options from other manufacturers).

• 3D Ergonomic Design: Conforms to your body shape for maximum comfort.

Neither I or my petite girlfriend find a backplate uncomfortable at all. This surprised her to no end. May be a selling point for some individual divers, however. There's always DSS for different pattern plates for people with longer/shorter backs.

• Lightweight: Advanced materials keep weight low.

Have not been able to find actual weight on this. My setup comes in at 3.5kg, including the alum plate (= less weight needed to sink me). Good enough for me.

• Neutrally Buoyant: Near-Zero inherent buoyancy requires less lead, resulting in better buoyancy control and much more enjoyable diving.

BP/W neutral to negative, depending on plate.

• Body Grip Gel: Prevents BC from shifting and riding up.

Two words: crotch strap. This actually sounds unpleasant; one of the things I love most about the BP/W underwater is the feeling that it's hardly there at all due to minimal webbing and a softer crotch strap.

• Dual-Compound Backplate: Provides the ultimate in stability and comfort. Single tank band system allows for easier assembly.

I like the stability of a dual tank band. No discomfort on a hard plate for me.

• Torso Flex Zone: Auto-adjusts to your torso length for excellent comfort and freedom of movement.

Solution looking for a problem I haven't experienced,

• Articulated Shoulder Straps: Allow straps to adjust to your body shape to achieve a snug fit.

2" webbing fits me and the girlfriend just fine, and tailored to our specific needs. For a rental fleet that requires quick and easy adjustments I could see this being helpful.

• Kit-Up Assist: Holds shoulder straps open for easy donning.

Non-issue for me.

• Cross-Flow Channel: Unrestricted internal airflow reduces air trapping for enhanced maneuverability and easy deflation at any angle.

This sounds interesting, but perhaps also more necessary given the very large lift capacity (a Hydros my size would have 40 lbs of lift, and I already think my 30lb wing is actually unnecessarily large for the diving I do).

• 2-Stage Inflation: Tri-bungee system controls air distribution to maintain a compact shape under water and high lift capacity at the surface.

So basically a bungee'd wing of the type most wing manufacturers seem to have abandoned? See above.

• Dorsal Weight-Wing: Anti-abrasion and instant dry. Optimal "Outboard" trim pockets.

Wing. Trim pockets. Good, not innovative or exciting.

• Buckle Weight System: Simple, safe and reliable quick-release buckles offer a fixed location for easy one-hand operation.

So do mine.

• Multi-Mount Accessory Matrix: Multiple D-Rings and mounting points for a knife + light + SMB + hoses + crotch strap and much more.

I can add whatever I want, and remove the ones I don't. With ease.

• Smart-Pack Design: Folding shoulder and waist straps pack into the wing, creating an unbelievably compact package for easy transport and storage.

I can roll up the wings and stack two backplates pretty compactly.

So it's a nicely designed jacket that addresses some of the issues many other jackets have (mostly comfort/ergonomics, and riding up by having a grippier monoprene harnass), and borrows a few notes from the BP/W design ethos (modularity, back-inflate, trim pockets, bungee'd wing, packability). The comfort thing may well be important to some, so you'd have to try it out in a store to see if it makes a difference for you.

Two things: First, it is very easy for a person to comment: "that is easy, I can do it myself" or "I don't need all of that" or many other statements similar when another person/entity comes up with unique but simple innovations. Very similar to "I could've done that or thought of that" but YOU DIDN'T!!!!

Second, a saying in Libya: "He who can't reach the grape vein, will claim that it is sour anyways."

 

[mattia_v]

Two things: First, it is very easy for a person to comment: "that is easy, I can do it myself" or "I don't need all of that" or many other statements similar when another person/entity comes up with unique but simple innovations. Very similar to "I could've done that or thought of that" but YOU DIDN'T!!!!

Second, a saying in Libya: "He who can't reach the grape vein, will claim that it is sour anyways."

Two things:

First, answer the question by showing me the relevance of the innovations you believe you see here. I went through the marketing point by point and indicated what I think of the relevance. I am not saying it's not a good product, just that 90% of the innovation seems to be 'it molds itself to your body nicely and has grippy gel stuff so stays put'. Which is nice, but for those of us who find a simple Hog harness to be comfortable, seems like a solution looking for a problem. Like I said, it looks like a really nice jacket BC, just not great value for me and my diving.

Second, you're on a forum. It's a place for civil discussion and debate. So kindly abstain from insulting people you disagree with and contribute something meaningful to the conversation. Had you presented any arguments of worth beyond 'I love Scubapro and just look at the amazing innovations right there on the website, you haters are all too cheap/poor to afford the awesomeness of my favorite brand!' your condescension could be ignored as an attempt to be funny or clever, but as it stands, it's simply rude and disrespectful. The Hydros is a good but expensive product. So are many others.

 

[tbone1004]

Go and read the product description and you will find out the innovations it brings in BC design and functionality. There is no other company represented in the whole wide world as SP is!!

I don't understand the relevance of "every scubapro shop in the world going to have parts to service it if any of it's "innovations" fail?" in this context at all. Not every part and most likely they don't have to because of the reliability and the very few issues with SP products in general. BTW, not every Mercedes/BMW/etc. shop in the world going to have parts to service their respective products if any of their "innovations" fail.

I don't have to, @mattia_v already did.
so again, what innovations are really worth that much money? and since you seem to imply that backplates and wings are unreliable and have lots of issues compared to scubapro, what reliability issues do they seem to have? I have yet to see them....

 

[eelnoraa]

3) What relevant innovative features do you see in the Hydros?

Ultra Durable: ...
Instant Dry: ...
"BC-4-Life" Modular Design:
Lightweight:
Neutrally Buoyant:
Dorsal Weight-Wing: Anti-abrasion and instant dry. Optimal "Outboard" trim pockets.
Wing. Trim pockets. Good, not innovative or exciting.
Buckle Weight System: Simple, safe and reliable quick-release buckles offer a fixed location for easy one-hand operation.
Smart-Pack Design: Folding shoulder and waist straps pack into the wing, creating an unbelievably compact package for easy transport and storage.

I think this group of so called innovations, have really been mastered by the bp/w design. You really can't get any better than a metal plate and 10ft of nylon webbing for durability, quick dry, modualirty and packing ability.

For light weight and neutral buoyant, BP/W can easily archieve that by choosing the right components. You get tons of options for weight pockets.

3D Ergonomic Design:
Body Grip Gel:
Dual-Compound Backplate:
Torso Flex Zone:
Kit-Up Assist:
Cross-Flow Channel:
2-Stage Inflation:
Multi-Mount Accessory Matrix:

Now these, half of these are just naming convention. 3D design, what isn't. Dual compound backplate, I can think of a few BC with more than one material in the back support plate. Torso flex zone, if you choose the proper size, why does it matter. You won't adjust it mid-diving. ...

I can't say if Hydros is a good BC or bad BC because I haven't used it. But to call the very common and existind features as innovation just sounds dumb. Innovation is good but it should mean something. But too often, the "innovation" is abused. Making a name for things that everyone else is doing everyday isn't an innovation. Doing something that other don't do because it is a known a try and fail, isn't an innovation either

 

[Aqua-Andy]

"BC-4-Life" Modular Design: Customizable to add/remove weight systems, straps and pouches. Extended lifespan due to simplified repairs. Virtually every component, including buckles, can be replaced without stitching.

I got a kick out of this selling point. Who's life are they referring to? Typically a manufacturer considers the life of a product to end when they stop producing it. So where are you going to find all the proprietary components for this BC when SP decides that it was not selling as they expected and discontinues the product?