Split from: Diver Death in Cayman

[ZenDiver.3D]

This is exactly where the problem comes in. Most people shopping for a class don't know what questions to ask when they call around and most shops dont likely have much time to go into lengthy sales pitches with every customer that calls. Some shops undoubtedly make a better effort than others, but like with any industry that tends to be the exception rather than the rule.

I agree with this. But, many people have done no research at all. They go for the marketed name. And PADI is the best marketed agency in the world. Tey hear the word and think it must be good, not ever looking at the shop, talking to the instructors, looking around at other groups in the area.....

SSI requires annual reports on all its instructors, submitted by their associated SSI sponsoring shop.
AFAIK the only required formal CE is currency in First Aid, Oxygen Admin & CPR.
As a practical matter the very best CE for an instructor is from the students, who're constantly inventing new and clever ways to hurt themselves.
And no, we do not need the government's help in policing instructors.

Rick

Absolutely right. But we do need to police ourselves better. I get really tired of the many students who come to me from the other shops here, needing fixing...

All instructors should have it so good to of had you as a student. You are making it sound like students should know how to dive and all the do's and don'ts of the diving world before they sign up for class. Hence the name "students". Hopefully, you teach better than you criticize.

That is not at all what he said. And students never cease to amaze me......

Basically what you're saying is several agencies have low standards (I agree) and it's up to the individual instructor to beef up the class well beyond what is required by some of the agencies. There are rare instructors who do exactly that, but they shouldn't have to do it. I can't buy the concept of letting agencies with poor standards off the hook for their lack of requirements. There are other agencies with higher standards. Poor standards are the fault of the agency that wrote and adopted them.

I agree Walter, but there is a lot of abuse of those standards. If the instructors who rush the class, pool, and sea dives, would slow down and quit compacting their classes for time and drills, many students would be more independent divers upon completion.
Now let's lay some of the blame on the students. Do you know how often I get,"So how fast can I get this certification?"
And, " What do you mean, I need more skills and buoyancy work? I paid my fee, You HAVE to give me my certification! NOW!" No I don't. And I won't, until I am satisfied that they were capable of being a buddy to my children. This is why I Know my new divers would never let a DM or instructor lull them into doing a dive that the were not ready for. Because I do train them to be thinking divers. Many of us do. All should.

I own the shop, and I push my new OW divers to DIVE. Please do at least 10 2 tank dives before you come for your AOW class. You need to dive. I know that many instructors, however, are pushed to roll them through. I am sorry for that too.

So, I don't blame any one person. There needs to be a stepping up from all arenas involved. At the end of the day, it's someone's life or family at risk. Most dive accidents, according to DAN, are purely diver error. That's the point of these discussions. To learn from other's errors. Let's do that.

 

[GaryLee]

The confusion was created because NAUI (then the dominant agency) had a sequence that went Open Water, Open Water II (also known as Sport Diver), and then Advanced. PADI came in with Scuba Diver (pool only), Open Water (same as NAUI, just shorter) and then Advanced, end of sequence. It was an intentional plan to let their outlets say, "You can have PADI Advanced for half the cost and half the time of NAUI Advanced."

PADI Has Open Water, Adventure Diver then Advanced Open Water
The "Advanced Open Water Certification isn't saying they are an Advanced Diver but they have completed 5 dives beyond their Open Water Certification and therefore are beyond Open Water.
The Certification is Advanced Open Water Not Advanced Diver.
There are also other "Adventure Dives" that an Open Water Diver can do if they want to and a few that they can do once they are an "Advanced Open Water Diver".


All Agencies are different but all have to react to public demand or dissapear. I would imagine that this is why NAUI re-named their courses. BSAC did the same and I know that this is why PADI named theirs in this way.

 

[GaryLee]

Rescue was in every class but there was a rescue specialty course and an advanced rescue specialty.

I know that BSAC also adds more Rescue in its first level of courses.
It's something that PADI could do with including to a greater level as part of the Adventure Diver and Advanced Open Water Diver.

So what does the Rescue within the courses include,
Could you send me a sample as I would love to see how it's structured within the courses. Not the Speciality just the inclusion within NAUI's courses. I will be spending 10 days in July with some of the senior Members of PADI and this is one of the areas of training I want to bring this up with them so need all of the data I can get my grubby hands on.

Cheers Gary

 

[GaryLee]

I own the shop, and I push my new OW divers to DIVE. Please do at least 10 2 tank dives before you come for your AOW class. You need to dive. I know that many instructors, however, are pushed to roll them through. I am sorry for that too.

I'm not.
If I can get Open Water students whom have only done 4 open water dives so will never be completely competent to take the Advanced Open Water Course with me before going diving without direct supervision then I know I have longer to spend with them to increase their boyancy control and further their understanding of diving in a more relaxed atmosphere. Yes they have some Boyancy control and understanding but the more they can learn through another two to three days diving with me and not worry about studying from a book the happier they are and I am.
This doesn't just go for Open Water divers either. I have professional level divers that ask to complete speciality non professional level qualifications with me. They don't need to but at that level they realise the benefits of the courses and of course get a lot more out of them

 

[Walter]

If the instructors who rush the class, pool, and sea dives, would slow down and quit compacting their classes for time and drills, many students would be more independent divers upon completion.

True, but standards could prohibit the practice. At least one agency has a maximum of 8 hours per day written into its standards. At least one agency has a minimum number of hours written (not a suggestion like most) into its standards with at least half of that minimum is required to be in confined water. Those particular standards further state, "Instructors using "weekend" courses are encouraged to certify the students in another agency that allows a shortened course."

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

I'm not.
If I can get Open Water students whom have only done 4 open water dives so will never be completely competent to take the Advanced Open Water Course with me before going diving without direct supervision then I know I have longer to spend with them to increase their boyancy control and further their understanding of diving in a more relaxed atmosphere. Yes they have some Boyancy control and understanding but the more they can learn through another two to three days diving with me and not worry about studying from a book the happier they are and I am.
This doesn't just go for Open Water divers either. I have professional level divers that ask to complete speciality non professional level qualifications with me. They don't need to but at that level they realise the benefits of the courses and of course get a lot more out of them

Why are new OW divers coming out not completely competent? You should train OW divers to be able to dive without supervision, to begin with. You should not use the AOW course to complete skills not mastered in the OW.

True, but standards could prohibit the practice. At least one agency has a maximum of 8 hours per day written into its standards. At least one agency has a minimum number of hours written (not a suggestion like most) into its standards with at least half of that minimum is required to be in confined water. Those particular standards further state, "Instructors using "weekend" courses are encouraged to certify the students in another agency that allows a shortened course."

Yep, I agree with you, darlin'. I know.

 

[GaryLee]

Why are new OW divers coming out not completely competent? You should train OW divers to be able to dive without supervision, to begin with. You should not use the AOW course to complete skills not mastered in the OW.

Perhaps I am using the wrong word here.
Any diver passing their first qualification has a long way to go and a lot more to learn before you could say they were completely competent. Hell I have over 3000 Dives under my belt and am still learning. I think it's a great opportunity for a new diver to enjoy diving during the Advanced Course without the added stress of learning so much theory. I have seen first hand from many many students that after the Advanced course their skills in Open Water are far far better than they were after Open Water.

and Hey, I didn't say that I didn't train OW Divers to dive without supervision or that I use the AOW Course to Complete Skills not mastered in the OW course. That's not very nice :-(

 

[Web Monkey]

Let's see if I understand what you're trying to say (I must admit I'm a tad confused by your statement). I think you said, New divers are not incompetent (well, OK, they are incompetent, but you have to expect them to be incompetent since they've received poor training). Is that what you meant?

That's pretty close. Many had poor training, but all are new. I apologize for being unclear. As I hit the "post" button I knew that phrase would be confusing.

New divers are by definition inexperienced and can't be counted on to go safely wandering around random parts of the ocean, however they are generally qualified to handle conditions similar to training (depth limit, hard bottom, etc.).

If "Guided Dives" were restricted to conditions within certification limits, most of these deaths would not have occurred.

If on Sunday afternoon a diver is only qualified to be swimming around a 40' sunny lagoon under the direct supervision of an instructor, Monday morning he isn't magically qualified to be hovering on a 6000' wall with a DM 500' away. The only thing that has changed is that he and the instructor signed some papers.

Terry

 

[Web Monkey]

Now let's lay some of the blame on the students. Do you know how often I get,"So how fast can I get this certification?"

Although I'm a big fan of dropping a big steaming pile of blame right where it should go, I don't think this is a student issue.

SCUBA Certification is sold as as an object that is obtained in exchange for time and money and not recognition of skills and knowledge. Even though both skills and knowledge should be present before the c-card is signed, this isn't how the classes are marketed.

From the student's point of view, less time and less money is a "better deal" and PADI has lead the charge towards less time (no idea about money), which makes a weekend class appear to be a "better deal" than say, an 8 week class for the same price.

The students don't understand that they've been mislead and their understanding is exactly backwards.

Terry

 

[Rick Murchison]

It is not an "unfortunate misnomer" it is an intentional lie. When PADI introduced their AOW course they modeled if after NAUI's Open Water II / Sport Diver Course but named it the same as the next higher course in the NAUI sequence, "Advanced" (being cutise about Advanced "Open Water" vs "Diver." NAUI Advanced was a well respected program that was, at the time, being required for most boat diving ... it was PADI's intent to confuse the consuming public, and they succeeded. Chalk up another marketing coup.

When I took my initial Scuba course, there were essentially two ratings - Diver and Instructor. When I re-entered the formal training arena some 24 years later, the shop owner I was doing business with recommended I take the "Advanced" NAUI course. It was interesting... aside from the equipment changes and additions (those were not trivial, as they included SPGs and BCs ), I was surprised that the physics, physiology, dive tables and actual diving skills - and especially the physical fitness - required were somewhat less than my original YMCA diver course.
I was also surprised to learn that I was the only one in the class who could really work the tables backwards & forwards and the only one who had been introduced to staged decompression in the original diver course. (of course we knew nothing of redundancy beyond hang bottles, etc., so it was an entirely different world from today's "tech" diving - but we did cover basic deco in the original course. It was just looked at as a "normal" extension of the tables; what you did when you needed to do it, rather than a "beyond the realm of basic diving" thing).
Bottom line: I had expected much more "meat" in an "Advanced" diver course, but found that except for equipment changes it was the NAUI "Master Diver" course that was best equated to my original diver course (but still without deco). Now I have no idea how much of that can be attributed to changing standards and how much to my original instructor (ex Navy diver), but I do know that today's courses spread what I learned in that original course over the OW - Advanced - Rescue - Master Diver steps, at least in the physics/physiology/emergency/skills areas.
For an even more dramatic comparison, one can look at Rutkowski's original Nitrox course compared to today's offerings.
Rick