Split from: Diver Death in Cayman

[Web Monkey]

If our OW class didn't prepare us for beginning dives then we need to talk to the instructor, shop or even the agency.

You go to class, the instructor seem to know what he's talking about and nobody died or was injured during the class. How would an OW student even have a clue anything was missing?

Students, hold yourself to a higher standard or expect to become a statistic...

That sounds great, but exactly what standard(s) would you expect a new OW student to strive for (or even know about)?

Terry

 

[boulderjohn]

You go to class, the instructor seem to know what he's talking about and nobody died or was injured during the class. How would an OW student even have a clue anything was missing?

That sounds great, but exactly what standard(s) would you expect a new OW student to strive for (or even know about)?

I have said often in these forums that my own OW training was a 3-day course that violated standards significantly. If I had examined my book to see what skills were signed off, I might have recognized the names of a lot of things I didn't do in class. I did not do that, though. I had no way of knowing what should have happened (and didn't) in the OW dives. I was perfectly satisfied that I had received instruction that was just fine. I would have given that instructor a peachy review if I had been asked.

It was not until a number of years and more than 100 dives had elapsed that I got into a DM program and found out what was supposed to have happened.

One of the things I do in class now is tell my students that story, and I assure them that they will never make a similar later discovery about this class. Since we in Colorado do a lot of referrals, I also give them a sheet with the requirements for OW dives so that they will know if they are being short-changed where they do them.

 

[TheScubaBOB]

You go to class, the instructor seem to know what he's talking about and nobody died or was injured during the class. How would an OW student even have a clue anything was missing?

How do you know what may be missing from anything in life? You shop around. I'll admit that I didn't find out about Scubaboard until after my OW Cert Dives and that I would have asked more questions if I had but that's my fault for not researching Scuba more. I let a friend (then a DMC with 6 years diving) shuffle me into his LDS as I trusted him. I can't say the LDS classes were lacking. The instructor encouraged us to ask as many questions as we felt we needed. We had our books & DVD for a few weeks before class so I spent 10 evenings at home going through the book (1 chapter each night, went through it twice).

My OW Instructor & DM were great. I had a Claustrophibic panic attack at 30ft on the very first dive. Bolted for the surface, really felt stupid & was sure I was done for. The DM followed me up, calmed me down and got me back to shore. I have a 2 hr SI before dive #2 and it went fine after the Instructor, DM & I tweaked my gear a little bit. Made-up Dive #1 the following morning again without incident.

I never felt like I was just a number being shuffled through the line.

That sounds great, but exactly what standard(s) would you expect a new OW student to strive for (or even know about)?

How about the standard of "Would I feel comfortable if my daughter was going Scuba with this much training?"

Come on, we all have that little voice in our head that says "Am I really ready for this". Listen to it.

 

[Puffer Fish]

How do you know what may be missing from anything in life? You shop around. I'll admit that I didn't find out about Scubaboard until after my OW Cert Dives and that I would have asked more questions if I had but that's my fault for not researching Scuba more. I let a friend (then a DMC with 6 years diving) shuffle me into his LDS as I trusted him. I can't say the LDS classes were lacking. The instructor encouraged us to ask as many questions as we felt we needed. We had our books & DVD for a few weeks before class so I spent 10 evenings at home going through the book (1 chapter each night, went through it twice).

My OW Instructor & DM were great. I had a Claustrophibic panic attack at 30ft on the very first dive. Bolted for the surface, really felt stupid & was sure I was done for. The DM followed me up, calmed me down and got me back to shore. I have a 2 hr SI before dive #2 and it went fine after the Instructor, DM & I tweaked my gear a little bit. Made-up Dive #1 the following morning again without incident.

I never felt like I was just a number being shuffled through the line.



How about the standard of "Would I feel comfortable if my daughter was going Scuba with this much training?"

Come on, we all have that little voice in our head that says "Am I really ready for this". Listen to it.

I like your view point, but from experience.. I would say that a lot of people don't seem to have that little voice... or if they do.. their hearing has gone bad.

Don't know the percentage, but most people seem to pick their course based on price or someone they know...randomly know.

 

[Web Monkey]

My OW Instructor & DM were great. I had a Claustrophibic panic attack at 30ft on the very first dive. Bolted for the surface, really felt stupid & was sure I was done for. The DM followed me up, calmed me down and got me back to shore. I have a 2 hr SI before dive #2 and it went fine after the Instructor, DM & I tweaked my gear a little bit. Made-up Dive #1 the following morning again without incident.

I never felt like I was just a number being shuffled through the line.

This is all great but has no relationship with whether or not your instructor taught you everything that should have been covered.

How about the standard of "Would I feel comfortable if my daughter was going Scuba with this much training?"

That's a great question for the instructor to ask (I believe it's a paraphrase of YMCA or NAUI), however a new OW diver has no frame of reference to answer it.

Come on, we all have that little voice in our head that says "Am I really ready for this". Listen to it.

The little voice is also great, and I listen to mine all the time, but for new divers it only speaks up when the diver is way out of his comfort zone, not when something only slightly different pops up.

Terry

 

[gcbryan]

Why do you think every new diver isn't a statistic on their first vacation dive. It's because most people do have that little voice or the use of good judgment. They know enough to realize that they are new and should take it slowly.

We hear of a few people leaving the group and dropping down the wall but out of the thousands diving each year it's not many. That must mean that most newer divers are exercising better judgment. I know there are a lot of accidents just waiting to happen out there but this should still all be taken within context...most new divers are staying safe. This is not to suggest that it wouldn't be better to have longer, more through courses.

 

[TheScubaBOB]

With All Do Respect....

This is all great but has no relationship with whether or not your instructor taught you everything that should have been covered.

Okay, everything that should have been covered is actually listed in the PADI OW Manual. It explains what should be covered in each Dive both CW & OW. A good instructor will teach you a bit more.

Additionally, my OW Instructor & DM taught me some things that weren't in the book:

1. How to adjust my gear to overcome issues.
2. A little bit of Rescue! LOL.
3. Being scared underwater won't kill you.
4. Most problems CAN be solved at depth (in dive #4 mask removal & clearing).

That's a great question for the instructor to ask (I believe it's a paraphrase of YMCA or NAUI), however a new OW diver has no frame of reference to answer it.

But the same can be said for any student learning something new. That is why it is our responsibility to investigate what we want to learn before we begin the classes and then after the classes we shoudl evaluate how comfortable we are with the lessons.

In my case I spend many hours in a LDS pool with my new gear during the months between OW Cert and my first Dive Trip (it was winter and my interest in Ice Diving hadn't developed yet) just to get comfortable with what I had learned and the new gear that was going to protect me in the ocean.

The little voice is also great, and I listen to mine all the time, but for new divers it only speaks up when the diver is way out of his comfort zone, not when something only slightly different pops up.

Most new divers should be way out of their comfort zone for quite a while. I think it was somewhere around dive #12 that I finally stopped hearing "What the ******* are you doing, why are you deflating that air bag with all of this lead strapped to yourself IN WATER!" as the surface reached eye level on my mask. I don't know anyone who thinks Scuba diving is only slightly different from walking down the street.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Agencies & their Instructors should be held to higher standards than they are but we should never put our own safety solely into someone else's hands.

 

[Walter]

everything that should have been covered is actually listed in the PADI OW Manual.

Nope. That's merely what PADI requires. What should be covered is quite a bit more than that. For a better idea of what should have been covered, look here.

 

[Web Monkey]

Most new divers should be way out of their comfort zone for quite a while. I think it was somewhere around dive #12 that I finally stopped hearing "What the ******* are you doing, why are you deflating that air bag with all of this lead strapped to yourself IN WATER!" as the surface reached eye level on my mask.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You thought you had a great class but were still freaked out when diving.

If the class was actually good, you would have had enough pool time and sessions so your OW dives would have been "Wow, this is really cool!", not "What the ******* are you doing . . ."

In any case, I have no axe to grind here, it was just an observation.

Terry

 

[Thalassamania]

When I took my initial Scuba course, there were essentially two ratings - Diver and Instructor. When I re-entered the formal training arena some 24 years later, the shop owner I was doing business with recommended I take the "Advanced" NAUI course. It was interesting... aside from the equipment changes and additions (those were not trivial, as they included SPGs and BCs ), I was surprised that the physics, physiology, dive tables and actual diving skills - and especially the physical fitness - required were somewhat less than my original YMCA diver course.
I was also surprised to learn that I was the only one in the class who could really work the tables backwards & forwards and the only one who had been introduced to staged decompression in the original diver course. (of course we knew nothing of redundancy beyond hang bottles, etc., so it was an entirely different world from today's "tech" diving - but we did cover basic deco in the original course. It was just looked at as a "normal" extension of the tables; what you did when you needed to do it, rather than a "beyond the realm of basic diving" thing).
Bottom line: I had expected much more "meat" in an "Advanced" diver course, but found that except for equipment changes it was the NAUI "Master Diver" course that was best equated to my original diver course (but still without deco). Now I have no idea how much of that can be attributed to changing standards and how much to my original instructor (ex Navy diver), but I do know that today's courses spread what I learned in that original course over the OW - Advanced - Rescue - Master Diver steps, at least in the physics/physiology/emergency/skills areas.
For an even more dramatic comparison, one can look at Rutkowski's original Nitrox course compared to today's offerings.
Rick

That sounds accurate. Way back when there was no real difference in agency standards and requirements, NAUI, YMCA and PADI were all but indistinguishable (in fact, at my ITC in 1975 I could choose to get instructor certificaiton from NAUI, PADI, or both). PADI whittled theirs down and slowly NAUI and YMCA did the same.