Steam Machine Prizm?

[madmole]

The big question for us in Europe Shas is will the Prism ever get CE approval, all the while it hasn't its a moot point, we cant buy it and use it

I know Steam machines were talking to a UK dive shop about becomming the importers but they (the dive shop) told me they dropped the idea when they looked at CEing it, as its WOB was too high to pass

I looked heavily at the Prism when I started thinking of going bubble free. Steam machines dont do themselve any favours with the lack of information and photos on their site. It was difficult to get information. The CE was the clincher and, as from later this year CE is being extended to cover personal imports and selling second hand, which effectively bans the Prism, KISS, RB80, Meg etc in Europe

There are now over 80 CE testing houses in the US, the manufacturers of RB's must realise that to sell their units outside of the US (remember RB uptake is much higher in Europe) they have to get CE rated, or else the Inspiration will continue to run away with the bulk of the market

By the way the CE standard for WOB was lowered this year again, forcing the Inspiration to modify its inhale T to meet the new standard

 

[caveseeker7]

Damn, Madmole, just when I was about to offer you my couch for a night or two when you're here to pick-up your Prism.

Does that include units that have been imported before that date ???
Does it include foreigners diving their units on vacation ???
Or do I finally have a reason spend vacations elsewhwere ?
What about homebuilds ? If yes, isn't that how any new unit starts out ?
Are they gonna send the Dräger boys into exile if they design something
not yet certified?
What do have to have first ? The unit to test or the certification to (test)dive the unit?

Probably yes on all of the above, but even if not, those !d!ots have gone overboard. :upset:

There's a reason I left.

 

[Shas]

Sorry for upsetting the status quo. Re your comment;

I know Steam machines were talking to a UK dive shop about becomming the importers

Not true - SMI has not spoken with or approached any UK dive stores to act as agents or importers for the PRISM.

but they (the dive shop) told me they dropped the idea when they looked at CEing it, as its WOB was too high to pass

What complete rubbish, the breathing resistance and WOB numbers are so good SMI has published the USN data on their website (publicly available since May 2001), this would be independent data, tested to a recognised standard, not ours but we can't compare data because there appears to be none published on other rigs. As a point of interest the PRISM either meets or exceeds the performance of the USN MK16.

Should there be an interest in the UK I'm sure with the extensive data available on the system, application to get CE would not be a problem. SMI has not applied to date - it's a US corporation and has not required it

 

[scuubaadoo]

the Prism seems to be the better machine. I guess I am lucky I don't have the money right now and still have plenty of time to do more research.

 

[padiscubapro]

Shas once bubbled...
Okay there seems some mis-conceptions in how the PRISM is configured and operates so here goes;



No, the PRISM has it's single 9v battery (get it at any 7/11 or corner store) in a seperate battery compartment OUTSIDE the breathing loop. You flood the battery compartment - your flying manually, but your still CCR constant PO2.



The PRISM secondary reads all the sensors, it doesn't need a battery to operate. On systems with battery driven backups it is true you have a secondary source, however we have found over the last decade that this causes more problems than it solves as a damaged cable, flooded connector or flooded display renders the sensors useless as they are either been driven by the 6, 12 or 24 v battery supply which completely stuffs them or the Po2 indicated is batte
y leakage voltage across damaged connector,circuit board or what ever which looks like very high Po2's on the display. So not using a battery means only small mV involved. So access to raw sensor data is achieved even when the unit is heavily damaged or electronics flooded because we can turn the system OFF. Obviously if the canister is swamped its all over anyway but typicaly its the peripherals that get whacked and flooded.

I never said the prism's battery was in the loop, I just stated, maybe not in the clearest terms.. a flood serious enough to flood the inspiration battery compartment, would take out the sensors in all likelihood, the same type flood probably would also take out sensors in the prism (although the battery may still be intact, it would be useless without sensors).. Its not very easy getting water in the batteries.. there is no oring but the compartment seals fairly tight.. its more likely that a serious SALT water flood woud cause a battery drain from the wiring below the compartment.

Shas once bubbled...
Interesting numbers but there is no mention of water temp, gas density, scrubber grain size, depth, RMV etc. etc. The duration you quoted was for the 5.4 lb PRISM scrubber, the 6lb scubber you reference gives 300 minutes or 5 hours under USN test standards - look at the SMI website http://www.steammachines.com/PDFs/TM01-03.pdf

[/B]

The Inspiration tests are rated at 4 degress Centigrade instead of 4.5 (for your tests), The warmer water yours was tested in in theory should yield slightly better numbers, probably in all liklihood neglidgeable...
8-12 mesh, no ratings were done on 4-8 mesh

No it is not smoke and mirrors - the bottom line is the PRISM with full cylinders, full 6lb scrubber ready to dive is 47lbs and has a considerably longer dive duration and much less work of breathing, these are facts as can be verified by the publicly available test data. In the FL Springs, 8lbs of lead is needed in the counterlungs (4 either side) which makes a total unit weight of 55lbs - still less than the Inspiration on the desk. If you wish to use steel cylinders the PRISM can utilise anything up to 7ltr 300 bar steels without customisation.

ok 55 lbs, if you change it to 3l steels as in the inspiration add about 12 lbs, thats now 67 lbs..

You didn't specify wet or dry, but in my drysuit with heavy underwear I use 4-6lbs in salt water, less in fresh water, this brings the equipped inspiration to about 70 lbs... pretty close to me....
I'm not trying to bash, just trying to give clear comparisons oranges vs oranges, as neutral as possible..

I did say in my message I would reserve judgement until I saw another diver use the rig.. I wouldn't base it solely on 1 diver, who may not have been capable to do the delicate adjustments in calibration or maintanance..

The Inspiration may have been more up his alley since everything is done digitally, and the seals are dummy proof(as long as they are present)..

my main complaint with the prism has always been the lack of user changeable setpoints underwater, I understand why you chose that path, but for an experienced user, I'd like to have the option to control the setpoints (Peter told me it can me done with different handsets).. When I dive at sunset house a fixed setpoint (after 18 fsw)would be a real pain in the A**.. its over 300 yards to the wall.. once you get to the wall you can do a fast drop if your po2 isn't that high... I will typically run at a 1.00 and control my PO2 with my descent rate.. once I'm at depth I'll bump it to a 1.3.. If I'm already at the high setpooint at start of the wall at 80 fsw, dropping to 200 or 300 fsw would take forever without lots of Dil flushing.., either that or use a lower setpoint and fly the whole dive manually..

I don't know how true the following statement is, but I was told the unit must use 100% oxygen, there is no compensation available..

There are 2 potential problems here 1) you get oxygen from PSA systems when traveling... 92-96% is common, now if there is no compensation you can always calibrate and figure out what the content is for a given display...
(This is purely an example I did not do any calculations because I'd have to take ambient pressure into account- its illustrative only)

if the controller was indicating 1.4 the loop may actually be 1.3 or lower..

If you dive at altitude, without compensation the numbers really get skewed..
at 6000ft 100% oxygen at the surface would only yield a .8 po2

Who knows, with the expected price increases, I may end up not even dealing with the Inspiration in the future...

No RB is perfect for everyone.. just look at my current unit.. It doesn't look like an inspiration anymore.. its totally custom for my needs.. it comes in at approx 110lbs with full independent integrated bailout. My hoses and cannister are heavily protected, My only real concern in all likelihood is probably only scrubber breakthorugh, which shouldn't be a problem when staying within limits. There is much longer duration canister in the works by a third part, so thats my next swap out..

If an Inspiration owner was really concerned with travel weight, it could be dropped significantly..
1st get rid of the brass manifold and use standard hoses.. The manifold makes hose routing very neat but is not an absolute necessary and is heavy..
2nd get rid of the Apeks regs.. they are great regs, but are vastly more than is needed (for CCR diving) but they were probably chosen for the onboard bailout which must meet specific CE breathing requirements.. they also weigh a ton... switch to simple scubapro regs like you have done..
3rd change the clips on the shell with spring loaded clips that allow a longer throw so aluminum cylinders will fit.. AL 19s are just slightly too large in diameter to easily fit.. The case can be used as is but its very tricky getting everything to fit.
4th get rid of the brass SPGs and go with a lighter guage..I personally like the large original guages, but they are even heavier than the current ones..

 

[ronccr]

WOW, can FACTS get blown out of proportions about PRISM by those who clearly are not experts in and/or the PRISM Rebreather.

Fact:
* documented test data from outside sources (US NAVY) that are not in control of the manufactur themselves... in laymens terms, they can not cheat, mis-lead or manipulate the test data.

* US NAVY tested well over 25 rigs (closer to 40) & the PRISM excelled to the top. Do your homework, just because someone states it's tested by the NAVY does not mean it has passed which is why PRISM provides the US NAVY test results. Try to get written data from another manuafactur? You can not because it does not exsist.

If I'm incorrect, please provide the test data.

* Having both a primary & secondary is debaitable by some, so I won't touch that at this time, however havign a battery inside the breathing loop is justy not good no matter how you look at it. PRISM has the battery outside the breathing. we all know what moisture does to batteries.

personal note on this: I will only dive a rig that has a way to opperate without a battery.

* oxygen injector is also outside the breathing loop.

* PRISM WOB is outstanding, even upside down if you so desire.

* weight, personnaly I replaced the plastic backplate with a steel plate ( as in most NE wreck divers) that weighs 16lbs & I dive the DORIA with 3lbs (1.5 in each C/L). This most likely nets a weight of approx. 58lbs to dive in cold salt water.

* scrubber on the PRISM has a air barrier, this increase the obsorbment performance ( colder the obsorbment the less efficient the sodasord or sofolime. This also protest the absorbment from floods because teh water has room to roll arouns the absorbment & dump into a drain without passing through the material itself. the PRISM is rated & tested for 5 hours in cold water.

* PRISM has a presure transducer that defaults the rig to fly at .7 until you reash 18' which then will fly at your predetermined set point.

* I am not aware of any attempt for Steam Machines to sell their rig in Euro, however I have trained several from London.

Bottom line:

Each diver should do their own research to determine which is truely the best for them. Research all test data both within the manufacture & from outside resources. Any diver that will listen to a non-expert in any model on any rig is just not a smart diver. Also any diver who will listen to a expert in a model rebreather that does not provide written test data are not smart. get the test data & decide for yourselves, it's your life & money at risk so choose wisely.

get the test data, read the test data, talk to divers on all rigs, demo dive all rigs & decide for yourself. If a manufactur can not provide written test data it most likely does not exsist.


If anyony has a specific question on the PRISM, please feel free to e-mail me. refer to steammachines.com for US NAVy test data on the PRISM.

Cheers
Ron Scorese
NAUI technical Workshop director (rebreather) # 13545

 

[ronccr]

A quick note:

Any diver learning & deciding what CCR is right for them should seek a expert(s) in each rig / manufactur that is in production in order to get the correct data & decide for themselves. Also the test & opperational data should be stated in writing by some agency outside the manufactur that has no finanical vested interest. If you do not have it in writing how can you trust what someone is stating?

In general, any person with vested interest in any product can personally gain from mis-leading comsumers. If a manufacutur states spec's / facts in any product, you as a comsumer should determine where the data comes from & back it up in writing.

relating to PRISM, the manufactur supplies the data from the US NAVY & that data can not be altered, it's states the fact's, good, bad or indifferent - it's in writting facts by outside sources with no vested interest in the manufactur.

cheers
Ron Scorese
NAUI technical workshop director (rebreather) # 13545

 

[padiscubapro]

Ron,
I don't disagree with you. My point being each unit has a specific design goal and requirements which must be met.. The Inspiration was designed to be marketed in the EU, that means it must meet very specific CE requirements(sometimes very unrealistic).. This leads to trade offs that we must learn to live with (or change ourselves).

If you try and make a comparison, its good to know why things were done and if they could be changed..
In the EU steel cylinders are the norm, but are heavier.. In the US aluminum are much more common and lighter..
Neither is better, just what is expected..
Joe

 

[madmole]

Shas once bubbled...
Sorry for upsetting the status quo. Re your comment;



Not true - SMI has not spoken with or approached any UK dive stores to act as agents or importers for the PRISM.



What complete rubbish, the breathing resistance and WOB numbers are so good SMI has published the USN data on their website (publicly available since May 2001), this would be independent data, tested to a recognised standard, not ours but we can't compare data because there appears to be none published on other rigs. As a point of interest the PRISM either meets or exceeds the performance of the USN MK16.

Should there be an interest in the UK I'm sure with the extensive data available on the system, application to get CE would not be a problem. SMI has not applied to date - it's a US corporation and has not required it

Interesting, I can tell you the shop that was claiming all of the above if you want in a private mail

You should get it CE'd, there are shed loads of divers in the UK and Europe who want a choice in what to buy. but as the Yellow peril is the only CE CCR we dont get it

Mk16 WOB is rubbish anyway. That unit has been sent to DERA for CE level testing and failed abismilly

Interestingly enough the new CE standard has also been taken up by NATO so from Oct NATO forces can also only use CE approved devices. Get the prism tested and your market will open up

 

[wazza]

Any ideas what are the CE standard or what the machine should have so the CE will be approved? And I believe the CE only in Europe not for all over the world?