Jim I think it depends on who your student is. Most of my students are warm water divers who will be diving a rental set up. In that case it is important to me that my students react by getting the primary since a) I don't know where the octo will be on a rental bc and b) I have seen too many divers swimming along with the octo just dangling. As to the over head situation, I am mearly refering to another thread on here. The reality is it happens and as an instructor I need to teach real world diving. Pay your fee and most operators will take you through swim throughs. Whether it is right or wrong is meaningless, it happens and I try to teach my students to be prepared for it.
"Tank lift" regulator recovery
- Thread starter ComputerX
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
Ok so I have already gave my answer to the OP and normally I would not try to stray off topic, however, this thread has seem to stray from the original question to instructors discussing why they teach one way or the other. So First to Jim Lapenta, you and I seem to have the same philosophy on teaching methods. Second, when we talk about teaching in general, one has to decide if they are the type that follows standards and are happy with the minimum training they are giving their students. If that is the case, then there is nothing wrong with that. If you are the type that feels students need more information and hinse training above minimum standards, then all that is to be said is, your students will be more equipped to deal with stressful situations or emergency situations, plus it makes them more informed divers. Now a couple examples of this would be in an injured diver or dead diver scenario, and the family or that diver takes you to court, claiming you did not provide them with adequate training. Now as long as you follow standards, then I'm sure the training agency will go to bat for you and supply council, or at the least your insurance company will cover 100% (not my thought but their claims), as long as you follow standards. Now being a former Law Enforcement Officer, and spending many hours in court testifying, I realize that just following all the rules sometimes is still not enough. Imagine a jury trial and trying to get 12 people (most likely not divers) to understand that just teaching to minimum standards is enough to make someone a competent diver. If you believe that, then one, you have never been involved in a lawsuit or two you have a lot of faith in non professional divers or non divers dictating training (deciding the training you gave was enough ) that they know nothing about. Now if you were to testify that not only did you train to standards but that you also exceeded standards because you felt the student needed more information than what standards says is minimum, then there is a better chance the jury will decide that you were not at fault and that you gave that diver (student) as much information as you could to keep them safe. Now how does this apply to this thread. Someone mention PADI standards stated:
(PADI standards and related suggestions are clear and simple....
CW, Dive 1:
5. Recover a regulator from behind the shoulder.
The Guide to Teaching suggests: "Introduce both the arm-sweep and reach methods."
OW, Dive 2:
10. Recover and clear the regulator at depth.
The Guide to Teaching suggests: "Have student divers recover and clear their second stages using the recovery and clearing method they prefer."
Don't over think this and make it hard, it's not!)
I took this as more of a production type speech, saying teach to minimum standards without adding to, so we can maximize profits. As long as the student passes minimum standards then I've done my job as an instructor (once again is ok). Now I personally don't have the guts to say this is ok for me to do. I feel that there is more to minimum standards, and that I can prepare that diver (student) better, by giving them more tools in their toolbox to handle a bad situation. Hinse why I teach 3 methods to recover a regulator, including going for the octo. And I've never had anybody or any of the scuba gods tell me that the alternate air source was only for your dive buddy. Now I am no way shape or form calling out any other instructor, and I do not have a problem with you training to minimum standards for whatever reason, (profit being a biggy, diving is still a business to us), all I am saying is that I choose to go above and beyond because I believe in putting the student's well being above maximizing profits and teaching on a production basis. I also believe in teaching quality students over teaching a quantity of students. Just my thoughts.
(PADI standards and related suggestions are clear and simple....
CW, Dive 1:
5. Recover a regulator from behind the shoulder.
The Guide to Teaching suggests: "Introduce both the arm-sweep and reach methods."
OW, Dive 2:
10. Recover and clear the regulator at depth.
The Guide to Teaching suggests: "Have student divers recover and clear their second stages using the recovery and clearing method they prefer."
Don't over think this and make it hard, it's not!)
I took this as more of a production type speech, saying teach to minimum standards without adding to, so we can maximize profits. As long as the student passes minimum standards then I've done my job as an instructor (once again is ok). Now I personally don't have the guts to say this is ok for me to do. I feel that there is more to minimum standards, and that I can prepare that diver (student) better, by giving them more tools in their toolbox to handle a bad situation. Hinse why I teach 3 methods to recover a regulator, including going for the octo. And I've never had anybody or any of the scuba gods tell me that the alternate air source was only for your dive buddy. Now I am no way shape or form calling out any other instructor, and I do not have a problem with you training to minimum standards for whatever reason, (profit being a biggy, diving is still a business to us), all I am saying is that I choose to go above and beyond because I believe in putting the student's well being above maximizing profits and teaching on a production basis. I also believe in teaching quality students over teaching a quantity of students. Just my thoughts.
Funny but I see it completely different. First of all I would rather teach what is in the manual and repeat those skills until they are ingrained. There is so much to learn-and one of the most important aspects is WHEN to apply said skills. This thread is a case in point. Lifting the tank need only be done when the diver cannot reach their hose. As was pointed out this is a combination of position, gear and divers size. So lets get back on track. Why do you need to lift the tank? Because it is the best choice to make at that moment.
With a lost hose, The primary goal should be to get an air source and start sucking. With that done then stop think plan and act. Perhaps I am thinking that this skill is to get a breathable source when another (guarenteed one) is available.
Just to clarify, this is grabbing the right shoulder strap with the left hand in front of the body. Then using that hand to anchor the strap so that a shoulder shrug lifts the tank relative to the body. Is that correct?
---------- Post added February 2nd, 2014 at 07:31 PM ----------
Thank you all for an interesting discussion. One thing I have quickly realized is that there is more than one reason to recover a "lost" regulator.
Most of the time I have "lost" my regulator during a surface swim and I'm vertical, having just finished discussing the dive plan. I do a sweep because that is what worked best for me when I learned the skill in class.
I hadn't really thought about the "You just got tumbled. Now you are maskless, finless and without your regulator. You are clinging to a reef which has cut through your wetsuit in two places and is digging into your flesh." situation.
One thing I haven't heard mentioned is rotating the first stage so the right side is higher. That makes it easier for me to reach the base of the hoses.
I appreciate seeing the actual PADI standards. These are NAUI classes, but I suspect the emphasis on the tank lifting is not part of the NAUI curriculum.
I will try everything horizontal next time I get a chance. This school, BTW, teaches donating the primary; so going to the secondary is already part of the curriculum.
Correct, pulling down toward the feet with the left hand helps move the tank upward and then holding it anchors the tank in place during the reach.
To close out this thread with my final observations...
Since last posting I have spent about nine hours in the pool. I have tried a few different techniques and watched students doing the tank-lift when I could. All my practice and observation has been kneeling. I realize that makes this discussion somewhat academic .
The most important observation is the easiest one to forget on the internet; we are all different. This is about what worked for me.
I'm a big guy, not terribly flexible, and my BCD fits very snug. The tank doesn't lift at all for me, and twisting to reach the bottom of the tank means I can't reach the valve. Other people have very loose BCDs. I bet they get a lot more movement. That said, I didn't see it help anyone. With a dozen people doing the move at once, and me watching my student, it was hard to watch others. I might have missed it. But I didn't see noticable tank movement.
Grasping the strap with my left hand and sgrugging my shoulder did not help or hurt. Shrugging my shoulder moves my hand away from the valve exactly as much as it moves the valve toward my hand. It's like the handbone is connected to the armbone (which is connected to the shoulderbone,) or something ;-)
What works for me is sticking my butt out. Wearing an Al80 I can push the bottom of the tank out and pivot the valve forward. That gives me a few inches.
I forgot to push my right elbow back with my left hand. It is the most obvious technique, and I somehow forgot to try it in all three pool sessions. Based on dry land simulation, I bet it works a treat.
The thing that makes an absolute difference to me, and the three students I worked with, is being very clear about reaching straight back. What I didn't realize, until I saw two students do it simultaneously, is that when I'm not reaching the valve, I'm really flailing over my right shoulder. I look like I'm trying to get a bee out of my hair.
As a drill, I form my arm into a 90 degree angle in front of me. Upper arm forward, hand toward the surface. I then take the arm straight back using the shoulder joint, not bending the elbow until my hand is behind my head. That makes me focus on not opening my arms up. (The vocabulary for this is surprisingly hard. In terms of the shoulder joint, more "field goal is good," less "nailed to a cross.") I repeated that six or eight times and muscle memory kicked in. Then I started reaching for the valve and stopped trying to annoy an insect. At least until the next pool session, when I had to start over again.
Sweeping still works better for me, but I have to wonder if reaching for the base of the hose isn't a better technique to master. I can imagine situations where a sweep wouldn't find the regulator (regulator fouled, heavy current, etc.,) but if the hose isn't attached to your first stage you have more serious problems than either technique will address.
I'm a strong believer in mastering one technique that will suffice in as many situations as possible, even if it is not the perfect technique for any of them. My experience is that I default to my training before I am aware of the failure. I don't want navigate a decision tree in an emergency. I think I will switch from sweep to hose grab. Any reason not to?
And thank you all, again, for your advice. I really appreciate being able to learn from such great instructors and divers.
Since last posting I have spent about nine hours in the pool. I have tried a few different techniques and watched students doing the tank-lift when I could. All my practice and observation has been kneeling. I realize that makes this discussion somewhat academic .
The most important observation is the easiest one to forget on the internet; we are all different. This is about what worked for me.
I'm a big guy, not terribly flexible, and my BCD fits very snug. The tank doesn't lift at all for me, and twisting to reach the bottom of the tank means I can't reach the valve. Other people have very loose BCDs. I bet they get a lot more movement. That said, I didn't see it help anyone. With a dozen people doing the move at once, and me watching my student, it was hard to watch others. I might have missed it. But I didn't see noticable tank movement.
Grasping the strap with my left hand and sgrugging my shoulder did not help or hurt. Shrugging my shoulder moves my hand away from the valve exactly as much as it moves the valve toward my hand. It's like the handbone is connected to the armbone (which is connected to the shoulderbone,) or something ;-)
What works for me is sticking my butt out. Wearing an Al80 I can push the bottom of the tank out and pivot the valve forward. That gives me a few inches.
I forgot to push my right elbow back with my left hand. It is the most obvious technique, and I somehow forgot to try it in all three pool sessions. Based on dry land simulation, I bet it works a treat.
The thing that makes an absolute difference to me, and the three students I worked with, is being very clear about reaching straight back. What I didn't realize, until I saw two students do it simultaneously, is that when I'm not reaching the valve, I'm really flailing over my right shoulder. I look like I'm trying to get a bee out of my hair.
As a drill, I form my arm into a 90 degree angle in front of me. Upper arm forward, hand toward the surface. I then take the arm straight back using the shoulder joint, not bending the elbow until my hand is behind my head. That makes me focus on not opening my arms up. (The vocabulary for this is surprisingly hard. In terms of the shoulder joint, more "field goal is good," less "nailed to a cross.") I repeated that six or eight times and muscle memory kicked in. Then I started reaching for the valve and stopped trying to annoy an insect. At least until the next pool session, when I had to start over again.
Sweeping still works better for me, but I have to wonder if reaching for the base of the hose isn't a better technique to master. I can imagine situations where a sweep wouldn't find the regulator (regulator fouled, heavy current, etc.,) but if the hose isn't attached to your first stage you have more serious problems than either technique will address.
I'm a strong believer in mastering one technique that will suffice in as many situations as possible, even if it is not the perfect technique for any of them. My experience is that I default to my training before I am aware of the failure. I don't want navigate a decision tree in an emergency. I think I will switch from sweep to hose grab. Any reason not to?
And thank you all, again, for your advice. I really appreciate being able to learn from such great instructors and divers.
JayScuba
Registered
One important point is the reach behind/tank lift recovery method works in all situations. Upside down, sideways, etc. you are going to the source to find the regulator. What could be more sure than that
A key atribute that I teach is in addition to lifting the tank, pull the bottom of the tank a little left which makes the top of the tank go a little right, and closser to your hand. Again, I would rather my students be flexible enough to reach the hose with out any lift, but few are. By the way, the pushing it a little right, puts the valve in about the same possition it would be in if you were wearing a pair for doubles. Which, if tec diveing is in your furture, you better be able to reach for valve drils.
Jay
A key atribute that I teach is in addition to lifting the tank, pull the bottom of the tank a little left which makes the top of the tank go a little right, and closser to your hand. Again, I would rather my students be flexible enough to reach the hose with out any lift, but few are. By the way, the pushing it a little right, puts the valve in about the same possition it would be in if you were wearing a pair for doubles. Which, if tec diveing is in your furture, you better be able to reach for valve drils.
Jay
Similar threads
