Tank Valve On/Off Indicator

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

You just contradicted yourself. Don't ever turn a valve back off, even a little.

Valve open all the way, then leave it the fsck alone. When you are done diving turn the valve off. Until then, don't close it. Even a little tiny bit.

Hi BJ

I'm curious to hear, what's your reasoning behind this?

The trouble with turning valves 'full on' as you describe, is you will inevitably get someone, sometime, who will think it's off, and try to turn it on, breaking something in the process

I know we're not talking about technical diving here, but in tech diving you (well, the way I was taught anyway) only open the valve a 1/4-1/2 turn - that way it's quicker to shutdown/isolate if you have a blowout

I know that's not relevant to single tank diving, but my previous point still makes me want to do the back off after opening - I think everyone knows clockwise is closed and vice versa
 
but in tech diving you (well, the way I was taught anyway) only open the valve a 1/4-1/2 turn - that way it's quicker to shutdown/isolate if you have a blowout

Hmmm....

Never ever heard of anyone being taught that.
 
First, it is not my reasoning. It is a standard of safe cave diving practice, brought into tech and rec. There is no reason to dive with a partially closed valve, and many reasons to never do so. "Back a 1/4 turn" is one of those pernicious urban myths about diving, that seems to have arisen out of nowhere, and gets defended to the death by people who are only repeating what they heard someone else say. But if you go and ask that person, they have no better idea of why it is done than the first person. (Why I hate the fact that diving instructors have no 'continuing education' requirements, and no minimum scholastic education requirements : Stupid and dangerous practices cannot be eliminated. And old wives' tales once 'learned', pass for knowledge. Even when there is no rationale for them. Even when they are complete nonsense.)

I know everyone and their mother got taught "open all the way, and back a quarter turn". I got taught it too. Ask an instructor why they teach it, and they will likely have some reasonable sounding rationale. But they made it up, or are just parroting whatever nonsense they were told. I parroted it when I first started teaching too.


A relevant thread is here:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/tanks-valves-bands/259240-newbie-question-bleeding-my-tank.html

Read what he did, and why the air flow stopped/slowed. Same thing happens with any partially closed valve. If the handle is turned back a 1/4 turn, if it is not opened to the stop and left there, it is a partially closed valve.

Another thread which covers the problems that a partially/mostly closed valve can cause:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/regulators/255179-hot-first-stage-3.html

I have seen it way too much. The DM (or the diver) opens the tank and cracks it back a 1/4 turn. Or do they actually close it and open it up a quarter turn (impossible to diagnose which is which)? Until at 60 feet, halfway through the dive, the reg that won't supply enough air (because the tank pressure dropped, and now the seat of the valve is not being pushed by 3000 psi but only 1500 psi, and so it restricts flow to the point that the diver thinks they are out of air.). Also known as "why I always carry a long hose regulator". Or, "why I open all the diver's valves all the way once we are on the descent line". They don't know that I am doing it, because it is behind their head. But I know the valves are open. All the way.

What tech agencies suggests diving with "open a 1/4" turn" valves? Did an instructor teach you this in a course? (I know the answer to that question already, I hope.) That is absolutely insane. Doing that means a rub on an overhead obstruction can cut your air off in a split second. IANTD, and TDI (I'm an instructor in both, though not current) emphasize absolutely the 'cave standard' from NSS-CDS: All the way open, or all the way closed. Period. For any number of reasons, from the recreational "Oops, did it backwards" problem, to the more serious "one rub on an overhang can cut off your air supply" problem.

Open the valve all the way. Or close it all the way. Either way you will know what's what by just taking one breath while looking at your SPG. And if it is tech, properly opened valves are less likely to be rolled shut by an obstruction.

The "back a 1/4 turn" nonsense may have once made sense with certain low pressure valves, back when valves used waxed thread as packing material, which could stop sealing if compressed by overcranking. But I don't think (though I do not know if) scuba tanks ever used waxed thread packing. I know kitchen faucets and garden faucets used waxed thread packing. But then again a kitchen faucet is a regulating valve. A scuba tank valve is not. At least it is not designed to be.
 
I have seen it way too much. The DM (or the diver) opens the tank and cracks it back a 1/4 turn. Or do they actually close it and open it up a quarter turn (impossible to diagnose which is which)? Until at 60 feet, halfway through the dive, the reg that won't supply enough air (because the tank pressure dropped, and now the seat of the valve is not being pushed by 3000 psi but only 1500 psi, and so it restricts flow to the point that the diver thinks they are out of air.).

I had a "helpful" DM check my valve when I wasn't looking and turn it off + 1/4 turn on. Needless to say, I wasn't too happy when at 70ft, the pressure gauge started to go nuts. I didn't notice any interruption of my air, but I aborted the dive and figured out what happened after I got back on the boat, but it could have been bad.

But getting back to the OP's point, an indicating tank valve sounds like a wonderful idea. I am surprised by all of the people who are writing in about how "useless" it is. If done right, it would be a redundant safety system. Of course you should take care to open the valve properly, but what is wrong with redundancy? It would have made it less likely for my helpful DM to get it backwards. The big qualifying point is whether it is done correctly.
 
I saw these at DEMA, and I immediately thought they'd be great for charter operators, and for instructors. Being able to check at a glance if someone's valve is open might also prevent the meddling with valves that results in open valves getting closed by mistake. The device is not really useful for the diver himself -- If he can see it, he can also easily reach and turn the valve -- but looks like a nice safety factor for boat crews.
 
Hi BJ

I'm curious to hear, what's your reasoning behind this?

The trouble with turning valves 'full on' as you describe, is you will inevitably get someone, sometime, who will think it's off, and try to turn it on, breaking something in the process

I know we're not talking about technical diving here, but in tech diving you (well, the way I was taught anyway) only open the valve a 1/4-1/2 turn - that way it's quicker to shutdown/isolate if you have a blowout

I know that's not relevant to single tank diving, but my previous point still makes me want to do the back off after opening - I think everyone knows clockwise is closed and vice versa

That's 100% opposite from what I've had taught to me, and from what I've heard from anyone else that has taken technical training.

Turn all your valves all the way on. If something blows, there's only one direction to turn it to turn the valve off. Fiddling behind your head going "right-tighty lefty-loosy" while gas is spewing everywhere is a recipe for disaster.
 
I dive valves all the way on. When teaching I admit that I show students the 1/4 turn. But I also explain why we teach this (the inept DM thing). I then tell them that in order to avoid this altogether that after asking permission to board you instruct the DM or Mate to not touch your gear at any time. Then set it up, turn the air on, and leave it on. Then keep an eye on it. Then as you gear up to enter, check it again by verifying it is on, breath it while watching the gauge, and again ask whoever is directing entries to not touch it.
The tech classes I've taken and the people I've dove with are either all on or all off as well. And the DM's and mates on boats that do tech trips will NOT check anything of yours unless specifically asked. They know better. THey'll hand you fins, maybe even slip them on while you're standing there with doubles, stages, clip a bottle on, etc depending on the entry procedures. They will not touch your air supply.
 
I dive valves all the way on. When teaching I admit that I show students the 1/4 turn.


Better to have this dicussion in the I2I forum maybe, but why do you teach them this? I'm not wanting to get into an argument or tell you how to teach at all, I am just curious.

(Side note: One of the things I love about having more instructor experience (in number of certs, and number of agency instructor ratings, and continuing education of all kinds, and even languages spoken*) than any one who might hire me, is that I no longer have to do things 'their way'. And once in a while they even change and start doing things 'my way'.

* the languages spoken obviously would not apply if I went to Europe. I had a Dutch roommate who had taught OW courses in seven different languages. I have only taught Rec and "Tech" in two.)
 
Seems to me to be one of those obvious things that is easy to implement, probably cheap and adds a layer of redundancy. I can visually check my buddy's valve at any time, DM/boat crew can check without touching my gear. I will still do my final check just before getting to the water as I can't see the valve so no way I am going to become "lazy" and rely on it. Not sure what the negative is.
 
Doing that means a rub on an overhead obstruction can cut your air off in a split second

Thanks, that makes sense
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

Back
Top Bottom