"Term limits" on certifications

[DiverEMT]

As far as the cop, do you know how much it costs to get one of those cop outfits dry cleaned? Get it wet just becouse it's there job, ya right!...I lit a cop up on camera one night in Sacramento for doing the very same thing. Watch a gal walk into the river and drown herself. He wasen't even damp! I had to wait for the DART team to show up and they found her body in 30 seconds. She was still right there. If I would have know that, Id have been in the river....As a side note, two chest compressions restored a pulse and blood pressure! I was shocked. She was still brain dead but if this cop had been there to "serve and protect" she would still be alive....That was one of four drownings I ran that nightmarish week.

Ok, let's not go around slamming cops. I was a cop for 5 years before I got into Fire and EMS, my dad is a retired police officer, my husband is a police officer and my father-in-law is one. (Just some backgroud to support what I am about to say). First of all the cops afroementioned suprise me that they did not act, however, what if they could not swim? One victim is bad enough....we don't need anymore than that. Also some agencies have policies against their officers attempting rescue skills they are not trained in. It is the same thing in the fire service, we're not expected to attempt rescues that we are not trained in (for exaple Hazrdous Materials, confined space, etc.) You can't sit there are say that she would be alive if the cop had acted...if someone really wants to commit suicide, they are going to do it...whether we are there to help them or not.
We can ALL sit back and airchair quarterback and say 'if I was there I would have done ________". But, unless you've been in the exact same situation with the exact same circumstances, you can't really say what you would have done.

Anyway, let's not bash the cops, or anyone else, I think there are better discussions to be had on SB.

 

[MikeFerrara]

If you read between the lines of the DAN report which BTW is more raw data than it is statistics you see that aside from medical issues the big killer is poor skills often occuring in people with little recent experience and/or little training. Also notice that a significant number of these are new divers who would not have reached the time to recert anyway. Whenever I point to shody entry level training as a good area for improvement, the apposing arguement is usually based on the 100 or so fatalities that show up in the DAN report. I guess 100 is an acceptable number although I maintain that those are just the hundred who had a life or death need for skills that they and many more don't have. As it is most people who dive do take at least an entry level class. We have a somewhat captive audience here and may not get another chance so why not take advantage of it and really teach them to dive? The arguement here is that it might limit the number of divers who enter the sport. I disagree because a good class can actually be way easier than a poor one but so what? You can't have everything and recertification can only help if we assume that the problem is skills lost rather than skillers never had. My vote is for the skills never had. Another thing you'll see in the DAN report is how often buoyancy control problems are reported in conjunction with injury or death. Well hot dog! What do most divers look like upon initial certification? How many are told that they'll learn buoyancy control with practice after certification? What they really mean is that if they live long enough they'll improve...maybe. Poor skills is the problem and no matter how often you recertify your poor skills they'll still be poor and they might get you into trouble.

Reading accident reports is a frustrating thing, at least for me. It's the same stupid things we see over and over. In my time teaching and diving it became blatantly obviouse to me which skills were lacking in these divers and their relationship to entry level training. When the DAN report says that buoyancy control problems were reported in 60% of the fatalities (or whatever this years number is), IMO, it should be like a slap in the face to the training agencies! Sorry, when new divers suck in the water recertification can't possibly help. Recertify what? Duh...yep, they still suck.

However, lets say that we did decide to require some kind of recertification. Personally I hold MANY certifications with a bunch of different agencies. Go ahead, pull one of my cards. I have a box full of others I could choose from. Have one agency pull all my cards from them. That's ok, I have a bunch from other agencies. You couldn't even impliment such a thing without legislation to force all agencies to comply. Oh but wait...legeslation in which country? Maybe threat of UN sanctions or something? Just the administration would be a major task for the agencies. Just do it right the first time and be done with it.

 

[TCDiver1]

In this country, your desire to save people from themselves is trumped by their right to do as they please. Pray it stays that way.
Rick

Words to live by. Some of you might want to digest them again.

 

[lord1234]

It's not about policing, it's about the death of divers not willing to regulate themselves. If the honour system was working, would we have few diver deaths?
Disclaimer - I'm from a socialist country

personally...diving is a dangerous activity. If they aren't willing to understand/comprehend this(and their instructors didn't beat it into their head with a steel 100CF tank), then they deserve a darwin award.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It appears we had another death in Catalina's Casino Point dive park last night. Based on what I've heard from eye witnesses, and indirectly from the emergency personnel who attended, the victim appeared to be in "less than optimal" health. Of course it is sad when such things happen, and my condolences go out to the family and friends. However, it also made me revisit a few certification related issues.

First, over the years I have become convinced that certificates (at least BOW) should not be life long. I have seen, and had to guide or attend to, divers who were certificated years (or even decades) ago, yet had done little diving in between. Why should a certification acquired when one is in their 20's be valid when they reach their 50's (a lofty level that I myself have achieved!). A person's health and conditioning can change radically over this period, yet they are still certified to dive.

I support the concept of renewable certifications, perhaps after a three or four year period. A person certified as BOW would have to recertify IF they had not dived more than a designated number of times during that period. An individual who could verify achieving that number of dives through a stamped log book, would be automatically renewed (probably for a small fee).

The other issue is the health and physical condition of a diver being certified. Based on my observations in our dive park over many years, a number of divers get certified without being able to complete a simple physical test like swimming a reasonable distance (I would recommend 400 yards).

I've heard instructors and agencies are concerned about potential lawsuits should they deny certification to a person obviously overweight and in poor health. To overcome that possibility, the "hoop" to jump through should be the ability to perform at an acceptable level. I consider myself over weight, but I could easily swim 400 yards.

Then there is the case of young studs in their 20's (like myself in a former lifetime) who get out-of-condition in their 40's and 50's (not entirely like me today) yet still dive.

This is not just an issue of personal freedom. Divers who are not in condition, or who do not have sufficient recent diving experience, pose a risk to other divers as well. I have rescued several of them at the dive park. In the incident mentioned above, a young man had to jump into the water to try to rescue the diver in question (when several uniformed policemen on the scene failed to take action despite calls from the diver's buddy that he was drowning). He put his life on the line to do so.

Dr. Bill

I will disagree with ya Dr. Bill ... for purely selfish reasons.

First off, one of the attractions (to me) of scuba diving is that it's pretty much free of government regulations. Get the government involved in anything and before you know it you'll be up to your elbows in rules that make little or no sense ... and paying plenty for the jobs of the people who'll be charged with enforcing them. You'll have bureaucrats who don't even dive writing laws simply because they seemed "logical" at the time ... without a second thought for the unintended consequences.

Second off, not everyone uses a "sign & stamp" logbook ... nor do I think they should have to. I've logged over 1,200 dives in the last four years and not one of them has a stamp ... does that mean I should have to get BOW recertified? I don't think so.

Third ... scuba diving is one of the last bastions of personal responsibility left in America. If people choose not to be responsible then let natural selection run its course ... it was intended as a means to keep stupid genes out of the pool.

The last thing the scuba industry needs is government trying to protect us from ourselves ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[mrobinson]

When the DAN report says that buoyancy control problems were reported in 60% of the fatalities (or whatever this years number is), IMO, it should be like a slap in the face to the training agencies! Sorry, when new divers suck in the water recertification can't possibly help. Recertify what? Duh...yep, they still suck.However, lets say that we did decide to require some kind of recertification. You couldn't even impliment such a thing without legislation to force all agencies to comply. Oh but wait...legeslation in which country? Maybe threat of UN sanctions or something? Just the administration would be a major task for the agencies. Just do it right the first time and be done with it.

Mike, I think you make some very valid points. We all know scuba is a self-regulating sport. It can also stay that if we do something prior to the government stepping because it is a slap in the face to agencies - knowing we had the power to more sooner.

personally...diving is a dangerous activity. If they aren't willing to understand/comprehend this(and their instructors didn't beat it into their head with a steel 100CF tank), then they deserve a darwin award.

I work for an agency that doesn't want negative undertones within the teaching. It's like we all know it's dangerous to a certain extent but really are not allowed to say so. The agencies should be working with us here because some relative who is not a diver will pick that part up, capitalize on it and yes the government may intervene.

I want to prevent diver deaths and government control. We're not trying to force new ideas just implement recommendations into realities.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Another interesting statistic is that a full 88% of the 2002 fatalities were either overweight, obese, or morbidly obese. Maybe instead of checking a log, we need a bathroom scale.

Hmmm ... if that statistic is for America I would say that it pretty much reflects the overall population statistics.

We have become a nation of "supersized" folk ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Walter]

Interesting debate. It's always a shame when someone dies unnecessarily. Unfortunately, when someone chooses to dive when they are out of practice, they choose to greatly increase their chances of dying on that dive. It's a shame, but it's their choice and none of us should have the right to take that choice away. Good luck on your upcoming dives, Scuba1231. I would recommend that refresher because it's not just about comfort in the water, swimming well and understanding diving physiology, although those are certainly important, it's also about skills in a safe environment with someone who understands how to help you get back into practice. OTOH, it's your choice, I wish you luck.

I am also aware that some (if not all) agencies require a swim test of varying distances for certification.

At least one agency doesn't require you to be able to swim to get certified.

I think it is important to recognize that lowering the number of deaths is not the only measure of the effectiveness of a recertification program like I am suggesting. These are just the "worst case" scenario. Whenever a rescue is required to extricate an unskilled or unfit diver from a situation, it places at least two people in jeopardy. Of course these statistics are generally not recorded, so we'd have litlle or no basis for measuring the impact on them.

Excellent point!

After further research I found that the 90 death figure is for the USA. Approximately 5 deaths for every 100,000 dives.

That's total BS. No one knows how many dives are made. No one has a clue. Without knowing the number of dives, there's absolutely no way to have reliable statistics.

You can't have everything and recertification can only help if we assume that the problem is skills lost rather than skillers never had. My vote is for the skills never had.

That's certainly true!

I work for an agency that doesn't want negative undertones within the teaching. It's like we all know it's dangerous to a certain extent but really are not allowed to say so.

Sounds like it's time to find an agency with morals and ethics.

 

[ReefGuy]

Just wondering who would stamp my logbook when I do a beach dive, or dive from a private boat (that's 90% of my diving). I don't keep a current paper log, it's on the computer.

 

[mels_2]

one of my reasons for being leary of scuba diving (which i spoke to my instructor about) is my natuaral bouyancy, I couldnt sink if i wanted to. After taking the class and demonstrationing all my skills to a level my instructor thought were good enough to pass and be certified. I still do not think my bouyancy is good enough for me to go out and feel safe, I plan to buy my equipment practice more in a pool and go out with my local dive shop who knows my issue already and is willing to work on it with me. I also will be taken an advanced course once i have it under control and have a few dives under my bekt. On the recertifiaction side of it don't tanks need to be recertified? If you use the same dive shop to fill your tanks couldn't they stamp your book after a certain amount of fills or after 2-3 years when you bring your tanks in for their annual?

I have to say i am a bit offended with the negativity towards over weight people I myself am slightly over weight and can carry my equipment, can swim with out problems, and do not supersize or really eat at fast food places. And have seen young, well built divers that were out of breathe when done.