The Big Secret...

[redacted]

Students pay for a service and at bargain basement prices, I might add.

When BOW instruction is so readily available, why should it demand a premium price.

If an instructor really thinks his time is worth more, he/she should charge more (up front, not with added incidentals like purchasing weights). I suspect he'll be rewarded with more free time.

 

[anth]

Come on guys, he suggested buying a compressor AND a boat, to save money... I'd love to live in your fantasy world, Toodive.

Does anyone know this character, is he for real? Well, enough e-diving for me, I'm off to hit the water...

DSAO,

Anthony

 

[Firebrand]

If you want the government to step in and create legislation then they will also have to create an enforcement agency - SCUBA POLICE!!! So, how would you like to be exploring the reef, and the scuba police show up and ask to see your C-Card while you're under water. You'll have to use a few minutes of bottom time to do so. Plus, can you really esnure that the person behind the mask is the person who's picture may or may not be on the C-Card? C'mon. I mean if you really want to dive without proper certification & training, then by all means, do so. It's your funeral we'll be attending and reading about the incident in DAN's accident analysis.

 

[Heffey]

LDS or other people in business may believe that they may pick and choose who to do business with but in regards to this I believe the law may not agree.

In this case, they can, at least in the US.

Don,

I can't find any law in particular which would directly preclude a store from denying service to a customer for reasons outside the realm of race, religion, ethnicity, ect.

It would seem to me that there should some relevant statute which would prevent a store from denying a legal transaction based on a subjective store policy requiring a recognized certification.

Maybe some of you attorneys could spread some light on this.

Jeffrey

 

[Blackwood]

That's a myth that's been exploded a few times.

It's not a myth. Go read the tax code.



Section 1462 makes required parties liable:

Every person required to deduct and withhold any tax under this chapter is hereby made liable for such tax

Section 7701 defines required parties as withholding agents who are:

required to deduct and withhold any tax under the provisions and sections 1441, 1442, and 1443

Section 1441 applies to nonresident aliens

Section 1442 applies to foreign corporations

Section 1443 applies to foreign tax-exempt ogranizations

Subtitle A imposes liability on foreigners and US Citizens working in foreign countries with US tax treaties if they earn over 70k.




Are you liable? I'm not.

 

[Walter]

Don,

I can't find any law in particular which would directly preclude a store from denying service to a customer for reasons outside the realm of race, religion, ethnicity, ect.

It would seem to me that there should some relevant statute which would prevent a store from denying a legal transaction based on a subjective store policy requiring a recognized certification.

Maybe some of you attorneys could spread some light on this.

Jeffrey

Why?

 

[crlavoie]

Does anyone really realize that there is no law saying you have to be certified by an agency to SCUBA dive?

The reality is that there is no law that states you must have a c-card to go diving. Government has no regulation in the industry. What this means is simple. Anyone who wants to go diving can - and they dont have to pay for training of any sort to be able to do it.

The only things that may stop a person from going diving (some places) without a certification are 1. a dive shop that wont fill a tank without seeing a c-card... but then again you could buy your own compressor or have a friend get the fills, or 2. a dive boat that won't let you on without a c-card... but you can always buy your own boat or rent one.

Now don't get me wrong.. I do not advocate diving without training. What I am saying is that you can teach your friends how to dive and go diving with them anytime you want. The risks? Liability if they should get injured or die... but then again you're likely going to be at the other end of a lawsuit even if your buddy was trained by an agency... if they die while diving with you or on your boat.

The big scam in all of this is that once you reach the Instructor level (with any agency,) you could easily start your own agency and start certifying students at whatever price you wanted. You just need to buy professional liability insurance.

There is no need to be a member of the RSTC... there are many agencies that are not. There really is no need to even be an Instructor before doing this... except that I think it's a good idea. If you want to talk about risks... I'm likely not going to risk any more teaching on my own then I would if I was teaching for an agency...

I have yet to see a boat turn down any type of certification... regardless of the agency. If it says Open Water Diver on it and has your name and a number... no one is turning it down. Perhaps you'll call yourself BSDA... Bill's Scuba Diving Agency... make up some nice cards and go for it... there is nothing stopping you.

Just wanted to remind everyone that the major agencies are only big players because we've allowed them to be. They only take all our money for training because we allow them to. Happy Diving...

Ken

I love how threads work. The original OP actually makes a valid point and aside from the bashing, I have yet to see a valid response in support of certification. In another thread, I actually have a couple of people in agreement that certification is BS. On this one, someone decided to start the up Pro Certification drum beat and everyone jumped on board. It's no wonder we have to go an pay an agency to tell us when we're ready to take the next step in diving.

Can anyone (ANYONE!) pose even 1 semi-valid reason to require certification?

FWIW, this should not be construed as an argument against proper training or even "standards based training" from a professionally recognized association. For example, I also do a lot of rock climbing and mountaineering. There are a couple of standards based training programs that one can take from professionals that have demonstrated a level of expertise with concepts and systems that are universally recognized as standard operating procedure. When I have completed a program, nobody gives me a card or even a star on my forehead to tell me that I'm now certified to climb up to 1000'. You wanna climb? Go to it. Put on your little "No Fear" T-shirt and hop in your Nissan X-Terra just like the commercials and have at it.

Like I said in the other thread, where the hell is the agency that protects the couch potato from becoming a lard *****, ticking coronary time bomb? That person NEEDS to be protected because they are clearly not capable on their own.

 

[H2Andy]

Can anyone (ANYONE!) pose even 1 semi-valid reason to require certification?

it is one way to raise the chances that the training you will receive has been
time-tested, thought-out, and will help you stay safe.

you CAN learn Greek by yourself. it's just a lot easier with an instructor.

and if that instructor offers a particular certification in Greek, that is some
indication that he's not a fly-by-night charlattan, but instead has an approved
curriculum and has been tested in some way to insure he knows what he's doing.

now, of course it doesn't work 100% of the time, but it is a semi-valid reason.

 

[tedtim]

If you want government regulation, by all means encourage idiots to dive without certification.

Or you can just go to Quebec where you now have to have a certificate of qualification or else face the prospect of a fine (http://www.canlii.org/qc/laws/regu/s-3.1r.3.1.1/20050809/whole.html).

As I understand it, the law resulted from a coroner's report on diving accidents. I don't know or care about the full history other than the result is a set of rules and additional cost to divers.

 

[crlavoie]

it is one way to raise the chances that the training you will receive has been
time-tested, thought-out, and will help you stay safe.

you CAN learn Greek by yourself. it's just a lot easier with an instructor.

and if that instructor offers a particular certification in Greek, that is some
indication that he's not a fly-by-night charlattan, but instead has an approved
curriculum and has been tested in some way to insure he knows what he's doing.

now, of course it doesn't work 100% of the time, but it is a semi-valid reason.

OK, so it sounds like we agree that instructors recognized by a standards community are a good thing. But I still don't understand what good MY certification does for ME. So what if I'm certified?