The Big Secret...

[Don Burke]

I can't find any law in particular which would directly preclude a store from denying service to a customer for reasons outside the realm of race, religion, ethnicity, ect.

That would most likely be because no such law exists.

It would seem to me that there should some relevant statute which would prevent a store from denying a legal transaction based on a subjective store policy requiring a recognized certification.

It does not seem so to me.

Here is a link to the US Code:
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/uscode/index.html

Here is a link to the Code of Federal Regulations:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfr-table-search.html

Happy hunting.

 

[H2Andy]

But I still don't understand what good MY certification does for ME. So what if I'm certified?

i'm not sure i understand the question... but let's try this. you spend some money
and in return get a c-card. what do you have?


1. some assurance that your training was not a waste of time

2. some assurance that you are now ready to go and dive

3. the ability to convince others (by presenting the c-card) that you
are a trained diver and are ready to dive

4. the ability to rent tanks and air at dive shops worldwide

5. the ability to be allowed to dive from dive boats worldwide

that's about all i can think of

 

[Lead_carrier]

The big scam in all of this is that once you reach the Instructor level (with any agency,) you could easily start your own agency and start certifying students at whatever price you wanted. You just need to buy professional liability insurance.

Ken

Why do you have too reach the instructor level? I go to a LDS, don't like their prices, walk out, straight to the library, check out a couple of books. Read up, read scubaboard, and decide that I want to start my own agency. I'm not certified but big deal, I design my card, print it off and bingo. I have just certified myself to any level I want in my own agency. Let's see, what do I want to name it?

Pretty Arrogant Dive Instruction ?
Stupid Scuba Instructions ?
Stupids Dive Instruction ?
Never Actually Underwater Idiots ?
Touchy Dive Instructions ?
Glorified Underwater Experiences ?
Blamed Stupid Airsucking Crazies?
( this is not a shot at any agency, the letters just fit.)

Then I get incorporated, insured, and find someone that doesn't know what the court system is all about. Taa Daa.. :dazzler1: I have my first student.

 

[Heffey]

I can't find any law in particular which would directly preclude a store from denying service to a customer for reasons outside the realm of race, religion, ethnicity, ect.

It would seem to me that there should some relevant statute which would prevent a store from denying a legal transaction based on a subjective store policy requiring a recognized certification.

Maybe some of you attorneys could spread some light on this.

Why?

Walter,
The reason that I am interested is that I feel there is "wrong" on many different levels. Common sense wrongs, moral wrongs and legal wrongs. (Probably a few others too.)

I feel that it would go against common sense to sell air fills to an uncertified person and It may morally wrong to let an uncertified person kill themselves with your air fill.
But, is it legal to discriminate against a customer because they lack a c-card or have the wrong c-card? On that, I am not too sure.

Just curious, that’s why.
Thanks,
Jeffrey

 

[Rookie_J]

It's not a myth. Go read the tax code.

Are you liable? I'm not.

Gross income is taxable

TITLE 26 - INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

Subtitle A - Income Taxes

CHAPTER 1 - NORMAL TAXES AND SURTAXES

Subchapter B - Computation of Taxable Income

PART I - DEFINITION OF GROSS INCOME, ADJUSTED GROSS INCOME, TAXABLE

INCOME, ETC.

-HEAD-

Sec. 61. Gross income defined

-STATUTE-

(a) General definition

Except as otherwise provided in this subtitle, gross income means

all income from whatever source derived, including (but not limited

to) the following items:

(1) Compensation for services, including fees, commissions,

fringe benefits, and similar items;

(2) Gross income derived from business;

(3) Gains derived from dealings in property;

(4) Interest;

(5) Rents;

(6) Royalties;

(7) Dividends;

(8) Alimony and separate maintenance payments;

(9) Annuities;

(10) Income from life insurance and endowment contracts;

(11) Pensions;

(12) Income from discharge of indebtedness;

(13) Distributive share of partnership gross income;

(14) Income in respect of a decedent; and

(15) Income from an interest in an estate or trust.

(b) Cross references

For items specifically included in gross income, see part II

(sec. 71 and following). For items specifically excluded from

gross income, see part III (sec. 101 and following).

 

[gregor1234]

The existence of private certification agencies and the generally-recognized requirement to obtain certification protects the sport of diving from government regulation.

Other posters alluded to this above but none have put it this plainly. All the way up into the '70's you could walk into any sporting goods shop, plunk you money down and get whatever diving gear you wanted. (The guy I bought my first tank from had never seen a c-card.) As a result untrained divers were getting into and causing more and more diving accidents. This stirred up public concern especially in loacitons where diving iwas popular to the point where many local governments began passing laws and even requiring divers to obtain permits to dive in local waters.

This intrusion of government regulation into the sport of diving was the subject of many editorials and much discussion at the time and resulted in the general industry push to require certification in order to obtain equipment and supplies (fills) that remains in effect to this day.

Case en point: If sharks attacks get publicised, then politicians will pass laws banning shark-feeding dives in order to be seen to be "doing something" about it.

If untrained divers start getting in lots of accidents, then politicians will be forced to leglislate "safe" diving in order to give the appearance that they are "doing something" about it.

The certification agencies and the requirement for certification protects us from such government actions and even provides a means to lobby legislatures to pass laws that are favorable to the diving community.

BTW there is an OSHA regulation that requires employers to ensure that any compressed gas cylinders their employees handle are visually inspected annually. So no, you don't legally have to get an annual vis but the dive store or dive boat owner legally has to make sure you have one before he can let his employees touch your tanks.

 

[Goose75]

Looking only at the basic scuba cert, why not go through an agency? Most of the gear is usually included in the price (at least mine was), the instructor spends hours of his time with you, dive masters accompany for hours of their time, you have experienced people to ask questions, books to read, videos to watch and at the end you receive a piece of plastic that opens doors to more dive boats and fill stations. Add in the cost of advertising plus organizing it all and I bet the agencies aren't making much off the first cert. So what is the complaint about? If you don't agree with their methods, get the plastic and ignore them forever after. I bet most people who complain about C cards are upset over the "boat diver" and other obvious money making card schemes. The first one doesn't look like their are raking anyone over the coals to make a buck.

 

[Walter]

Jeffrey,

It seems to me your two points contradict each other. I'd agree with your first point and disagree with yuour second.

 

[Don Burke]

is it legal to discriminate against a customer because they lack a c-card or have the wrong c-card?

Yep

 

[crlavoie]

The existence of private certification agencies and the generally-recognized requirement to obtain certification protects the sport of diving from government regulation.

Other posters alluded to this above but none have put it this plainly. All the way up into the '70's you could walk into any sporting goods shop, plunk you money down and get whatever diving gear you wanted. (The guy I bought my first tank from had never seen a c-card.) As a result untrained divers were getting into and causing more and more diving accidents. This stirred up public concern especially in loacitons where diving iwas popular to the point where many local governments began passing laws and even requiring divers to obtain permits to dive in local waters.

This intrusion of government regulation into the sport of diving was the subject of many editorials and much discussion at the time and resulted in the general industry push to require certification in order to obtain equipment and supplies (fills) that remains in effect to this day.

Case en point: If sharks attacks get publicised, then politicians will pass laws banning shark-feeding dives in order to be seen to be "doing something" about it.

If untrained divers start getting in lots of accidents, then politicians will be forced to leglislate "safe" diving in order to give the appearance that they are "doing something" about it.

The certification agencies and the requirement for certification protects us from such government actions and even provides a means to lobby legislatures to pass laws that are favorable to the diving community.

BTW there is an OSHA regulation that requires employers to ensure that any compressed gas cylinders their employees handle are visually inspected annually. So no, you don't legally have to get an annual vis but the dive store or dive boat owner legally has to make sure you have one before he can let his employees touch your tanks.

History often provides the answers and in this case, this the best answer I've ever heard. I don't like it and still think it's a scam but I'm forced to agree with the principle.

The counter point to this in the climbing community is that it's not society's problem if somebody kills themselves by participating in an activity with such a level of inherent risk. Case in point, in most of the places that I climb, if you're in trouble, it's a volunteer SAR team that comes to your assistance, at no cost to the surrounding community (tax payers). The only time the law get's involved is for the official statement from the medical examiner. In those cases, SAR performs life support measures to the road side where the ME drives up and pronounces the victim dead. End of story. Morbid as it sounds, corpses litter many mountain ranges throughout the world because because there either is no SAR or it's deemed an unnecessary risk to extricate the body (or even attempt a rescue of someone still struggling). Why are divers different?

Man, those were some dark thoughts, huh?