The Big Secret...

[Atticus]

I think part of what's missing here is an understanding of where the money you pay for a class goes. In most instances only about $20 goes directly to the certification agency.

If you pay $200 for a basic open water class then it might be broken down as follows:

$20 agency/certification fee (this part goes to NAUI/PADI/etc)
$70 instructor fee (paying the guy for his time, fuel, personal insurance, etc)
$60 pool rental (here it's $60/hr pool rental, 6 students for 6 hours = $60/student)
$50 books/videos/tables

Instructor insurance runs $400-$900 / year, and annual instructor dues typically run $100-300 / year depending on the agency. These are typically paid for by the instructor out of the $70/student.

I teach scuba diving because I enjoy it. If I didn't make a penny on it I'd still do it. I teach 4 or 5 classes a year and really enjoy the new dive buddies I meet.

Back to the subject at hand - my point is that by circumventing the agency you're really only saving $20 per certification plus a portion of the annual instructor dues (that the instructor pays out of their $70/student or whatever).

In exchange for that $20-$30 / class you get an instructor that has a quality control program watching him making sure he actually knows what he's doing and isn't endangering you, and a card that is (hopefully) universally recognized with no hassles.

 

[Blackwood]

Gross income is taxable.

Gross income of those who are liable for taxation is taxable.

 

[stevetim]

I love how threads work. The original OP actually makes a valid point and aside from the bashing, I have yet to see a valid response in support of certification. In another thread, I actually have a couple of people in agreement that certification is BS. On this one, someone decided to start the up Pro Certification drum beat and everyone jumped on board. It's no wonder we have to go an pay an agency to tell us when we're ready to take the next step in diving.

Can anyone (ANYONE!) pose even 1 semi-valid reason to require certification?

FWIW, this should not be construed as an argument against proper training or even "standards based training" from a professionally recognized association. For example, I also do a lot of rock climbing and mountaineering. There are a couple of standards based training programs that one can take from professionals that have demonstrated a level of expertise with concepts and systems that are universally recognized as standard operating procedure. When I have completed a program, nobody gives me a card or even a star on my forehead to tell me that I'm now certified to climb up to 1000'. You wanna climb? Go to it. Put on your little "No Fear" T-shirt and hop in your Nissan X-Terra just like the commercials and have at it.

Like I said in the other thread, where the hell is the agency that protects the couch potato from becoming a lard *****, ticking coronary time bomb? That person NEEDS to be protected because they are clearly not capable on their own.

Maybe certification is so that when divers get in the water with other divers, all certified divers have actual published and tested training methods that are similar? If I suddenly run out of air at depth and need to share air, I damn well think I would want someone near me that was certified to handle that situation.

Face it, let's say you are a single diver on a charter boat you've never been on and get buddied up with some guy you've never met. And let's say this guy tells you he is uncertified and just 'slipped' through the system and 'dives all the time, don't worry'. (Hell, I myself have gotten on a charter without showing my C-Card). Would you dive with him? Me personally, no. But I know someone wants to debunk my logic, so let me hear it.

We all think we are masters of our own little universe until the **** really hits the fan. Sorry for using the following example, but look at hurricane Katrina and the people who defiantly stayed in it's path under a mandatory evacuation. And no, I am not talking about people who really had no option but to stay but those who never thought the situation they are in now would ever arise. There may have been no LAW stating they had to go(please help me on that note), but hindsight is worthless to the people now just struggling to survive.

 

[dbg40]

I love how threads work. The original OP actually makes a valid point and aside from the bashing, I have yet to see a valid response in support of certification. In another thread, I actually have a couple of people in agreement that certification is BS. On this one, someone decided to start the up Pro Certification drum beat and everyone jumped on board. It's no wonder we have to go an pay an agency to tell us when we're ready to take the next step in diving.

Can anyone (ANYONE!) pose even 1 semi-valid reason to require certification?

FWIW, this should not be construed as an argument against proper training or even "standards based training" from a professionally recognized association. For example, I also do a lot of rock climbing and mountaineering. There are a couple of standards based training programs that one can take from professionals that have demonstrated a level of expertise with concepts and systems that are universally recognized as standard operating procedure. When I have completed a program, nobody gives me a card or even a star on my forehead to tell me that I'm now certified to climb up to 1000'. You wanna climb? Go to it. Put on your little "No Fear" T-shirt and hop in your Nissan X-Terra just like the commercials and have at it.

Like I said in the other thread, where the hell is the agency that protects the couch potato from becoming a lard *****, ticking coronary time bomb? That person NEEDS to be protected because they are clearly not capable on their own.

Well said, and agreed to. A card, does NOT a competent diver make,, and no ammount of argueing will change this fact. I have taken to task (in these forums) agencies that will, without conscience, certify students that CLEARLY are not physically, or emotionally suited to diving. Dispite popular trends in thought, knowledge is available in other arenas than a classroom, it is, and should be only one source of education. No one here wants to see "government" involved in this sport, but if one is allowed passage to it only by writing a check, we have already created a form of self government, that has no representation. Don't believe it?,, again, I ask you to look at the growing number of "specialty" cards that you can spend a fortune on. I dont remember voting these into dive law, they just showed up on our doorstep unannounced and unwanted by many, and it is being supported by the industry as a whole as a way to squeeze capital from divers. Competence is achieved only through work, and experience, and I would wager that there are as many excellent, and competent divers that were never certified out here, as there are highly certified, card collecting divers, that are a menace to the sport, as they were allowed to pass through by the act of writing a check. I will never understand the willingness of other divers, to be so quick to draw blood and shout down anyone that offers a well thought out idea questioning these practices as gospel in our sport.

 

[crlavoie]

Maybe certification is so that when divers get in the water with other divers, all certified divers have actual published and tested training methods that are similar? If I suddenly run out of air at depth and need to share air, I damn well think I would want someone near me that was certified to handle that situation.

Face it, let's say you are a single diver on a charter boat you've never been on and get buddied up with some guy you've never met. And let's say this guy tells you he is uncertified and just 'slipped' through the system and 'dives all the time, don't worry'. (Hell, I myself have gotten on a charter without showing my C-Card). Would you dive with him? Me personally, no. But I know someone wants to debunk my logic, so let me hear it.

We all think we are masters of our own little universe until the **** really hits the fan. Sorry for using the following example, but look at hurricane Katrina and the people who defiantly stayed in it's path under a mandatory evacuation. And no, I am not talking about people who really had no option but to stay but those who never thought the situation they are in now would ever arise. There may have been no LAW stating they had to go(please help me on that note), but hindsight is worthless to the people now just struggling to survive.

Certification is perfectly useless in the charter boat scenario you describe but it's a perfect example of one of the problems in recreational diving. Everyone gets certified and wants to be whisked off on a charter boat because someone said they could. Yet they have little or no real experience. Your problems in that situation began before you left the dock by not properly assessing the risk. Just because someone is certified does not mean they will be able to perform when the real deal happens. I don't even believe that it really decreases the risk. An open and frank assesment of eachothers skills along with a couple of lower risk dives to become familiar is far more valuable than ANY C card. References don't hurt either... Too much trouble you say? Well, what's it worth to you? A C card with an unkown buddy is little more than a "warm fuzzy".

 

[mrobinson]

$70 instructor fee (paying the guy for his time, fuel, personal insurance, etc)

WTH- you make $70 a student? Man, I wish!

 

[mrobinson]

Why do you have too reach the instructor level? I go to a LDS, don't like their prices, walk out, straight to the library, check out a couple of books. Read up, read scubaboard, and decide that I want to start my own agency. I'm not certified but big deal, I design my card, print it off and bingo. I have just certified myself to any level I want in my own agency. Let's see, what do I want to name it?

Pretty Arrogant Dive Instruction ?
Stupid Scuba Instructions ?
Stupids Dive Instruction ?
Never Actually Underwater Idiots ?
Touchy Dive Instructions ?
Glorified Underwater Experiences ?
Blamed Stupid Airsucking Crazies?
( this is not a shot at any agency, the letters just fit.)

Then I get incorporated, insured, and find someone that doesn't know what the court system is all about. Taa Daa.. :dazzler1: I have my first student.

:rofl: :laughing:

This is an awesome thread!!!!

 

[mrobinson]

Man, those were some dark thoughts, huh?

Those should be sobering thoughts for some.

I love this thread but really and truely I still support "the more training the better" idea. At the end need a card? I dunno anymore. But for brand spanking new students, unless your name is Jesus or the child of a very experienced diver - you better get the mininum card. I mean really! The basic card isn't enough as it is, IMHO but it's a start.

 

[Firebrand]

the ability to rent tanks and air at dive shops worldwide

Andy, how do you rent air? LOL, do you have to turn it back in after the dive?

 

[Heffey]

Jeffrey,

It seems to me your two points contradict each other. I'd agree with your first point and disagree with yuour second.

Walter,
Not really sure what you are agreeing to or disagreeing to.

I will make it simple.

1. I feel that a recognized scuba certification should be required in order to purchase scuba equipment(bcd, tanks, regs) or scuba services(air fills, charters).

2. Simply out of curiosity alone, I wonder, in the absence of any law which requires a dive shop deny air fill services to non-certified customers, are the shops inadvertently walking on any other existing statute?

Jeffrey