The Buddy System Reexamined

[DA Aquamaster]

This is perhaps diving using a third approach - none. A violation of both the solo and team approach. There is no preparation or adhesion to either. “The agreement was if we became separated we just continued on.” This is just a false sense and complete violation of buddy or team diving where one is supposed to effectively work as, and to, remain a team.

I often dive under that arrangement. A reality of cold freshwater diving is poor visibility and it often does not take much to become separated a moments distraction whiel you or the buddy pauses to look at an object on the bottom is enough to do it.

The usual lost buddy procedure of looking for one minute and then surface to rejoin is also not always practical. For example if you are diving at 80 ft and become separated you are then committed to a 1 minute search plus over 5 minutes to surface if you do so with a slow ascent rate and a 3 minute safety stop.

Personally it seems more reasonable to me that as long as you are both adequately skilled, equipped, and comfortable comleting the dive solo, to go ahead and just agree to act independently in the event a separation occurs. It is certainly safer from a DCS standpoint to make one dive with a safe profile, slow ascent and safety stop than it is to do what amounts to a couple of bounce dives.

I suppose once you are on the surface you could just bag it and go back to the boat/shore, but then not much diving would get done in some locations. And realistically, if I lose a buddy in 3 ft viz at 80 feet and spend 6 minutes searching and surfacing and a couple more minutes waiting for the buddy to surface to account for various time factors involved, and he/she is still not on the surface, what exactly am I going to do at that point that is going to help the situation. Sit on the surface and stress out about it? Go back down solo to start the search and recovery process in 3' viz in a search area that is now roughly a football field in size? Call the dive rescue squad?

It sounds cold, but frankly if it went badly for the separated buddy, all of the above steps can be considered and/or done after I end my dive in a normal manner and discover the buddy is missing and determine he/she is most likely out of air on the bottom. At least with this approach I am not putting myself at uneccesary risk on a pointless search. And with a pre arranged agreement that we are essentially diving solo but more or less together, I am at reduced risk of getting sued by the greiving/greedy widow.

 

[Scuba]

"Originally Posted by derwoodwithasherwood
Rationalization, or reaction? The "buddy team only" adherents cry loud and long that any buddy is better than no buddy and that, by extension, a diver is safer if there is another diver in the water at the same time"
------------
Who says this? I've taught for two different agencies and have taken classes with a bunch more and I've never heard any one who's anybody or any agency say such a rediculouse thing. A bad buddy can kill you...no real revelation there.

I can't tell you who said that, exactly. What I can tell you is: That is the resulting practice of the promulgated buddy system by the training agencies and many dive operators who force divers to buddy up with anyone available - or they can't dive. Some things are never explicitly said, nor denied. "Dive with a buddy" is the official stance, I believe. The rest just naturally follows unless its explicitly addressed, which is certainly not the case to a great extent. Ops do it to cover their liability. The result is divers are placed at risk for profit with the standard setting agencies and many buddy proponents complicitly tolerant, if not outright advocating such practice. The phrasiology may not be identical, but the resultant advocated course of action give credence to the above statements. Obviously, it is not universal.

You make good points about invalid comparisons and bad buddies.

Originally Posted by scuba
Consider the following:

A competent solo diver IS most probably safer diving solo than with an incompetent diver.

A competent solo diver IS most probably safer diving solo than diving with the typical, unknown quality diver on most charters.

It is valid, and soundly rational, to make such statements.
---------

It may be rational to make the statement but the comparison is, IMO, meaningless.
My point is that one shouldn't dive with an incompetant buddy EVER. Also, one should dive with a buddy who's an unknown quantity unless it's a simple get aquainted dive designed specifically to find out and work out the kinks in preperation for diving together.

The two valid choices should be to dive as part of a functioning team or alone because the others are clearly dumb things to do.

I think it is very relevant and meaningful due to it being commonplace practice today. In addition, consider the resulting consequences of the buddy system carried to an extreme where dive ops force any two divers to buddy up in order to dive, without objection from the buddy promoters main principals. True, one need not make such dive. But this is a limitation of the buddy system that should be well noted and when possible enforced by those proposing it, to overtly ignore it is reckless in my opinion. In addition, many instructors, yes, even during training dives, and DM's, and guides, demonstrate a bad example. Very meaningful in my opinion. I do understand your point, and I know you don't agree with these practices. The buddy system has shortcomings, flaws, and limitations. So does the solo system. Let's see thing for what they are, and bring them to light.

We can not gain a comprehensive understanding of a system unless we understand its flaws and limitations. To not be aware of such is an indication of a lack of a thorough understanding of the system. To deny such is a dangerous illusion. Unfortunately, all too often in these discussions some indicate such a belief. Not reffering to you Mike, or anyone in this discussion.

Hope you are never on anyone's jury! Your assuming that we were dummies is not only insulting it is not justified by the post. If you had any questions about the circumstances you could have asked before making such irrational comments.

Didn't intend it as an insult and I made no such assumptions. Read the paragraph again as a statement of fact not as an accusation. My intent was to point out that you were neither diving solo nor buddied, and to state that you were diving either one, or both, of those two dive methodologies is incorrect in my opinion. You offer no substantive rebuke, so I have to stand by what I said.

That several experienced divers decide to do an enjoyable dive without adherence to team or solo principles, is alright by me. However, there should be a clear understanding that there is no adherance to these two diving methods, and no pretense of such. What should we call this type of diving? Experienced leisure recreational diving. Anything goes? Whatever happens - happens? What are its core principals and rules? I'm being facetious and not. It would help to define it in a way that differentiates it from solo and buddy, since it doesn't uphold eithers principles.

Personally it seems more reasonable to me that as long as you are both adequately skilled, equipped, and comfortable comleting the dive solo, to go ahead and just agree to act independently in the event a separation occurs.
---------
And with a pre arranged agreement that we are essentially diving solo but more or less together, I am at reduced risk of getting sued by the greiving/greedy widow.

Same example as ArticDiver, and my relevant comments. The issue here is that there is no obligation to stay together, there is no due diligence required by either diver to be and remain a team. Not a buddy dive. If you think that there is a possibility of having a diver nearby to possibly assist if necessary underwater, then, you are not approaching the dive based on solo diving principles, either.

Abscribing adherence to team or solo diving principles in this type of dive is incorrect. I'm open to an explanation demonstrating otherwise

Obviously a not uncommon dive practice. One best approached completely as a solo dive, as you mention. Sort of a common lobster hunting practice around here. You go in with your buddy, and say I'll see you on the surface. You may stay in the vicinity for a while, or come across one another somewhere along - purely coincidental. I suppose one can even try to stay within a general vicinity, if contact is lost continue.

This is quite different from a true team dive where team diving procedures are followed and adhered to. Seperation into solo method occurs at pre-planned point, reaffirmed with team members confirmation and agreement, only then are solo procedures and adherence to such followed.

Couple more points. I dive very poor viz at times with a buddy, and yes, it is easy to seperate from buddy, but this is largely preventable with proper procedures. Not saying that it can't happen. This, along with the issues you raise about buddy seperation, are matters of great relevance to team diving.

.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think it is very relevant and meaningful due to it being commonplace practice today. In addition, consider the resulting consequences of the buddy system carried to an extreme where dive ops force any two divers to buddy up in order to dive, without objection from the buddy promoters main principals. True, one need not make such dive. But this is a limitation of the buddy system that should be well noted and when possible enforced by those proposing it, to overtly ignore it is reckless in my opinion. In addition, many instructors, yes, even during training dives, and DM's, and guides, demonstrate a bad example. Very meaningful in my opinion. I do understand your point, and I know you don't agree with these practices. The buddy system has shortcomings, flaws, and limitations. So does the solo system. Let's see thing for what they are, and bring them to light.

.

If a dive op requires divers to team dive and a diver doesn't have a team, that's a problem. This is brought into the solo diving discussion a lot but I'm not sure that's the right venue for it. Personally, I won't dive that way. While I my rely on some one local for information and suggestions I will make the final decisions about how I approach a dive or...I just don't dive. For me that means that I don't travel the world alone to dive knowing that I'll have DM's partnering me up with surprise buddies. I know lots of people do it but the result is about what you'd expect and sometimes a lot worse. you know what they say? Do what you always did and you'll get what you always got. LOL

Dive ops, divers and even the agencies need to get a clue because that isn't buddy/team diving, It is not relyable and it never will be.

 

[Nemrod]

I don't dive solo because I think it is safer, I don't care, danger is my middle name. OK, all the buddy guys win, solo diving is practiced by crazy reckless nuts. Good that I am a crazy and reckless nut!!!! Rules were meant to be broken and I love breaking them all.
Mike, you may always have a competent buddy in your perfect world but I simply don't live in that universe. Dive boats insist on buddy diving and they don't allow solo in most cases and most Padi trained divers are by definition incompetent so what is a person to do? Never dive? Nope, I dive anyway, try to accomadate by "buddy" and hope they enjoy their dive but when they cannot clear their ears at 10 feet or loose their mask for the third time or inflate their BC before rolling off the boat and wind up hundreds of yards down current or insist on asking me if I am OK every 10 seconds I usually see my way to loosing them.
I thought the Solo Forum was no troll and that we had gotten beyond justifying solo over and over to those who will never agree. My perfect buddy is me! N

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't dive solo because I think it is safer, I don't care, danger is my middle name. OK, all the buddy guys win, solo diving is practiced by crazy reckless nuts. Good that I am a crazy and reckless nut!!!! Rules were meant to be broken and I love breaking them all.
Mike, you may always have a competent buddy in your perfect world but I simply don't live in that universe. Dive boats insist on buddy diving and they don't allow solo in most cases and most Padi trained divers are by definition incompetent so what is a person to do? Never dive? Nope, I dive anyway, try to accomadate by "buddy" and hope they enjoy their dive but when they cannot clear their ears at 10 feet or loose their mask for the third time or inflate their BC before rolling off the boat and wind up hundreds of yards down current or insist on asking me if I am OK every 10 seconds I usually see my way to loosing them.
I thought the Solo Forum was no troll and that we had gotten beyond justifying solo over and over to those who will never agree. My perfect buddy is me! N

Diving alone may be the perfect solution for you. Please don't misunderstand. I'm not argueing against solo diving but rather against the logic used in the stupid article that the thread is about. I dive dive in caves but not because caves are the safest place to dive and I don't dive deep because it's safer safer than diving shallow. A bathtup is probably be the safest place to dive but I tried it and it's just not that much fun. I could never make a case for either using that arguement. fortunately I don't have to. I dive those place because I like to.

I don't think restrictions on solo diving are really much of a problem either. Sure there are some parks and charters/resorts where they don't allow it but if you go on boats where they're used to catering to a bunch of people that they have to take care of you'll have some one telling you how to dive because they think you need to be told. I know tons of people that dive solo and some almost exclusively. The dive all over the place...caves wrecks, reefs whatever. In other words you may just have to avoid the kiddie boats. LOL

 

[derwoodwithasherwood]

Who says this? I've taught for two different agencies and have taken classes with a bunch more and I've never heard any one who's anybody or any agency say such a rediculouse thing. A bad buddy can kill you...no real revelation there.

I was attempting to put into words my perception of the prevalent attitude. You are absolutely correct: I am not aware of any agency that has actually said "any buddy is better than no buddy". But at the same time, the agencies are giving people cards certifying, in part, that they have been trained in the buddy system and are a suitable buddy, ex officio. I am not aware of any agency that says "Some of our graduates may display abominable buddy skills and you shouldn't dive with them", yet it seems an accepted axiom that such bad buddies exist.

Is this the perfect forum to discuss this? Perhaps not but at least within this forum there appears to be actual dialogue rather than diatribe.

Maybe the logical answer is to just go find a better orange if that's what you want.

First, one must learn how to discern between oranges. While a bad orange will be apparent rather quickly, a bad buddy may be difficult to spot until it's too late. I personally need a system where all bad buddies are branded with a scarlet "B" on their forehead.

 

[ArcticDiver]

Well Scuba it is good that you didn't mean your thoughtless comments as an insult. But your follow up post demonstrates that you've built a thinking box around yourself. Or, perhaps you are just in a defensive mode. I can't tell for sure.

Dive choices are not limited to either solo or duo(one buddy). A competent person can dive by themself, or with one other person, or with a group. As long as the dive is planned and briefed it really doesn't matter, within reason, how many people are involved.

As I stated; in this case we planned and briefed a specific dive. We did it according to the plan. That the plan had flexibility was a good thing. That we became separated and followed our plan was forseen. Had we lucked out and been able to point our critters for each other would have been nice. But that didn't impact our safety, or our plan.


But, we've strayed from my original reason for joining into this thread. It was taking on a flavor of insisting that under all circumstances Solo Diving was superior to Buddy Diving or Team Diving. I strongly believe that is not the case. Sure there are times it is necessary to dive solo. There are other times it is more fun to dive solo. There are other times when it is either necessary, or more fun to dive with someone, or someones, else. So which is "best" depends more on circumstances than anything else.

The only iron clad rule is: Never dive with an unsafe diver. That includes yourself. If you are not feeling well, or are tired, or are on meds that interfere with your performance; don't dive. Unless a person is getting paid all our diving, however described, is recreational. As such it is supposed to be fun and not worth the risk of engaging in unsafe behaviour.

 

[Nemrod]

Mike, you are exactly right, it does get tiring having people on the "kiddie boats" telling you, me, us how to dive. I think it best often that they worry over themselves and let me do my thing. My wife will not sue them if I drown. N

 

[MikeFerrara]

I was attempting to put into words my perception of the prevalent attitude. You are absolutely correct: I am not aware of any agency that has actually said "any buddy is better than no buddy". But at the same time, the agencies are giving people cards certifying, in part, that they have been trained in the buddy system and are a suitable buddy, ex officio. I am not aware of any agency that says "Some of our graduates may display abominable buddy skills and you shouldn't dive with them", yet it seems an accepted axiom that such bad buddies exist.

Is this the perfect forum to discuss this? Perhaps not but at least within this forum there appears to be actual dialogue rather than diatribe.



First, one must learn how to discern between oranges. While a bad orange will be apparent rather quickly, a bad buddy may be difficult to spot until it's too late. I personally need a system where all bad buddies are branded with a scarlet "B" on their forehead.

Good points. I don't want to get too long on this because I've said it so many times before but divers are typically NOT trained in the buddy system. I've seen classes all over the place and almost always students go through their training dives following the instructor or DM in a pack...on a very short tour BTW) Never once to they demonstrate that they can plan and conduct a dive with a buddy during training. The extent of the buddy training is sharing air while kneeling. There is so much more to it and that needs to be learned, practiced and tested before you can say that one is trained in it. You see the result all over and it inspires articles/attitudes like the one we're discussing.

Further, we've turned this into an all inclusive sport...every one gets a card and is allowed to play. What do you suppose the skill curve looks like? A bell curve? We should be so lucky. In my experience the curve is far more skewed. So, now that you have all those marginal divers (at best) who have never been taught to buddy dive, who wants to be their buddy? How many of those should go off solo diving as a solution to their bad buddy diving experiences?

The agencies are funny. They do an absolutely rotten job of teaching buddy diving and then turn around and offer you a solo class so you don't have to be burdened with all the lousy buddies that they trained. LOL

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Further, we've turned this into an all inclusive sport...every one gets a card and is allowed to play. What do you suppose the skill curve looks like? A bell curve? We should be so lucky. In my experience the curve is far more skewed. So, now that you have all those marginal divers (at best) who have never been taught to buddy dive, who wants to be their buddy? How many of those should go off solo diving as a solution to their bad buddy diving experiences?

The agencies are funny. They do an absolutely rotten job of teaching buddy diving and then turn around and offer you a solo class so you don't have to be burdened with all the lousy buddies that they trained. LOL

I would agree the curve is skewed to the low side and that if yu show up with money in hand, you can get a cared, at least 95% of the time. A fair percentage of people who get certified today would not have even been invited to stay in the class 20-25 years ago due to poor physical condition and/or poor swimming ability and a related lack of comfort in the water in general. They don't really learn in an OW course, they just survive an OW course, and with enough hand holding and in some cases extra check out dives are eventually able to pass both the watered down written test and demonstrate a watered down set of skills.

They are then reliant on DM's and more experienced buddies to provide the customary hand holding. That would not be so bad if it were a short term situation, but many newly trained divers have no intention of ever diving in the cool to cold local waters where they could dive frequently with the intent of improving their skills. Instead they limit their diving to one or two tropical trips per year which puts skill development on perpetual hold.

The buddy system as applied to scuba diving was an outgrowth of the orginial YMCA focus on always swimming with a buddy. At the time it was assumed to be relavent to scuba diving and in an era where regulators were a signifincant percentage of the total equipment cost, redundant tanks and regulators were not a viable option for most divers so the buddy system also allowed some degree of redundancy in terms of air supply.

But when you look at the situation today where you have a combination of better equipment, more affordable redundant systems and an all time low standard for potential buddies, solo diving begins to make a lot of sense for the divers on the upper end of the bell curve who do not want to be saddled with a buddy with minimal skills.