the great 109 to 156 (using the new S-wing) and "lever" issues threads (continued)

[rhwestfall]

Another slim possibility I suppose would be some wear or nick in the square hole on the air barrel. You can take a jeweler's file and very carefully clean up the edge, especially the bottom corner where the lever rides. That might smooth things out a bit, but after reading your thread i'd be 90% sure that a new lever and spring will solve the problem.

Glynn Palmer of Malibu Scuba (whom I believe teaches/taught a regulator repair class for SP - though I may be incorrect, and please forgive me if I am incorrect) has discussed that with me numerous times in conversations over "issues" with the 109....

 

[NotSure]

It's a lot cheaper to just buy the new lever. The curved feet are supposed to improve the action of the lever as it moves between the square hole in the air barrel and the wings on the poppet, I guess. It seems to work; I've had excellent results on several 109s with it.

What you say is true, but I don't think this tool was designed to fix a bad lever or modify a lever to fit. I think this tool is made to be used on new levers to optomize lever height. I don't know if you can make significant difference by tweeking a new lever, but it's still a rare cool tool.

 

[Couv]

Glynn Palmer of Malibu Scuba ..... has discussed that with me numerous times in conversations over "issues" with the 109....

RE: Halo's idea of re-squaring the hole. What is Glynn's take on the issue? Sounds like a good idea to me, but I don't think I've come across one that required it.

 

[bj139]

Broken Piston Spring

I compressed the spring as much as I could by hand and it reduced to about 1.55". I later compressed it in a vise with no change. This improved the cracking pressure to about 2". Thanks for the spring info NS.
I remembered when I first installed the G200 poppet there was binding between the lever feet and the poppet. I shaved a bit of the plastic poppet with a knife and eliminated the binding. The binding involved the height of the feet and the poppet and the air barrel. The higher feet were jamming the poppet against the top of the air barrel. The original one piece barrel poppet had no binding with this lever since it had more vertical clearance. I think the newer lever with shorter feet was meant for the newer poppets. I decided to file the feet to be shorter like the #2 picture in Zung's post above. The cracking pressure is now improved to 1.2". My first stage, an MK1 has an IP of 125 which is probably a bit low. Maybe increasing this would match the spring pressure better to the IP. Now I have to find out how to increase the IP on a piston first stage. Something about shims, I read once. Does anybody here know anything about this?
NS mentioned above the approximate orifice position is about 1-1/2 turns out. I am finding mine is 2-3/4 turns out. This would make sense considering the low IP.

I got time to work on this again so I thought it best to get the IP right on the first stage. Thanks for the parts, Couv. I used my homemade Scubapro tools shown in picture 1, a pine pin spanner and an oak face spanner. The two brass nails in the pin spanner are shown at the top edge of the photo. The pin spanner uses an aluminum gutter spike for no scratch operation. Upon opening the cap I found a broken spring as shown in photo 2. I imagine this had a stress crack causing the low IP as noted above. This failure, during diving, should result in a complete loss of air. I am glad I took it apart before diving with it again. This probably belongs in a thread of equipment failures resulting in complete loss of air. I now have to find an MK1/5 piston spring.
Now for the second stage.:depressed:




---------- Post Merged on August 1st, 2012 at 12:36 AM ---------- Previous Post was on July 31st, 2012 at 08:05 PM ----------

I decided to file more on the original lever that was in my R109. On the theory that the force provided by the pressure on the diaphragm was not sufficient to easily depress the lever against the spring force, I changed the leverage ratio by filing the feet shorter in height. Scubapro did just this when it changed the lever from the first to the second version. I took it a bit further as shown in the photos. I don't recommend anyone else do this unless they are willing to take all responsibility. I am only showing what I did for myself.



In the left photo, the lever I filed is shown on the left. Unaltered lever version 2 is on the right in the left photo. The right hand photo shows the angle of the feet is different on the two levers. When I installed lever 2, the diaphragm would not even seat on the reg without applying force to the lever. I did not change the foot angle on my original lever. After shortening as shown, I found there was some free play between the diaphragm and the lever. I had previously bent the ears down slightly so I just bent them back up to eliminate this free play.

I adjusted the orifice to just eliminate lever free play by unscrewing the adjuster nearly all the way with the pin out so that the lever is just held upright with minimal spring force. Turning the orifice in pushes the poppet back and frees the feet of the lever from being pinned between the poppet and the air barrel hole so the lever falls. Turning the orifice out raises the lever to just eliminate free play. After this adjustment, spring tension from the adjuster being screwed in should provide enough force to seal the poppet.

When connected to a first stage with a stable IP of 135, the cracking pressure is 1"-1.2"set just at the verge of free flow. I found the adjustment knob to be more inconsistent than other regulators. Turning knob out until slight bubbling then turning in slightly results in more flow. Turning in more stops the flow. I assume the turning force is being transmitted to the spring and poppet causing a slight turning of the seat and different alignment with the orifice. I am willing to accept this.

 

[bj139]

I stated in my last post there would be a complete loss of air if the main spring in the MK1 broke. In talking to my buddy he mentioned that a reg would not stop supplying air if the 1st stage main spring broke. I reassembled the regulator without the spring and attached it to a tank. The reg did not freeflow. The measured IP was zero. It was hard to breathe but I think it would be OK to get me to the surface if I stayed calm. The resistance is the same as breathing through a second stage not connected to anything. With an IP of zero this makes sense.

I obtained an MK5 spring, installed it in the MK1 and the IP is 125 psi. I installed a T and a USD Calypso regulator and BC hose. Subjective breathing on the surface through the R109 and Calypso is very good. Do vintage divers have the SPG on the right side?

I plan to dive tomorrow with this setup using a 70's era plastic backplate (Dacor) with a Seaquest horse collar BC. I will post my results when I return.

 

[Couv]

Well done on getting that puppy working again.

Vintage is a relative term-most vintage divers did not have an SPG, back then the norm was a J valve. Some early SPGs were attached directly to the tank valve.

Also note the use of an octopus is fairly recent as is a BC and inflator.

Having said that, I'll have to go back on myself, the MK 1 would certainly be called vintage by lots of folks. However, the way you have it configured is sure to give you a headache. I would point the low pressure cap end down to avoid knocking my head on that Christmas tree. This way will place the SPG on the left side.

 

[bj139]

I had it at 100 FFW yesterday and it worked fine. Before the dive, breathing caused a chattering squeal from the MK1. It went away at 30 FFW. I had set the orifice on the R109 for a slight freeflow at full open and I noticed bubbling underwater from the 109 when I switched to the Calypso to take a look at the 109. Tightening the knob stopped the bubbling. When set to eliminate bubbling, the subjective WOB seemed a little more than the Calypso. I may have to convert to a balanced poppet to get the breathing I am used to with Apeks seconds. Near the end of the dive I noticed no dry mouth. I am not sure if one dive is a good test. I switched back to my Conshelf/Apeks for the second dive because of DIN valve and I got a dry mouth.
The hose routing was not too bad. The OEM leash on the 109 was helpful in finding the reg underwater since the vertical hose could go anywhere except down. I guess it was VERY helpful in the days before alternate second stages. My head did hit the MK1 but I am used to it since I often use a DIN adapter. I considered turning the MK1 down but that would have meant installing a longer hose to get the reg under my right arm. The SPG was fine running over my right shoulder.
From posts on SB, it seems converting to balanced should not reduce WOB but should provide more stability to the on/off mode and eliminate bubbling.

Would replacing the mouthpiece with a Comfo-bite be considered sacrilege? I thought I might be near the line attaching a USD Calypso to a Scubapro but keeping them apart with a vintage tee seems to have prevented them from fighting.
I never thought I would consider mouthpiece comfort to be near the top of my important list.

 

[Zung]

A complex case this one. Here's a recap of your actions:

... I bent it down with an adjustable wrench to the level of the other ear as shown by being parallel to the reg case...

... Today I bent the ears down more...

... Under a magnifier, the orifice edge had a slight bump. It looked like a chrome plating imperfection. I used a Micro mesh stick for a few seconds only and smoothed it out...

I compressed the spring as much as I could by hand and it reduced to about 1.55"...

... I shaved a bit of the plastic poppet with a knife...

... I decided to file more on the original lever...

... I had previously bent the ears down slightly so I just bent them back up to eliminate this free play...

Here are some answers I can think of:

1. Your lever is dead, probability 70%. Let me quote DA Aquamaster, his post is well worth reading:
   

   ... Bending the feet on the lever is a major no-no and don't worry about ruining the lever - you already have...

2. Your poppet is dead, probability 50%
3. Your spring is dead, probability 30%
4. EDIT: the orifice might be dead. I had 1 such case, tried to micro-mesh it, didn't work, mostly because I didn't hard enough, having acouple of spares to swap in.

The 109/156/G250 are machined to very close tolerance, and that swings both ways: you can swap parts at will and not worry about anything, or you modify one part, and the whole thing goes crazy. I once swapped poppets from 2 very different production runs (grey & white), and the cracking effort was identical, to maybe 10%, well within the resolution of a manometer, and I didn't touch the orifice.

And they are anything BUT tempermental: after a service, all of mine settle to about .8 in, and I detune them to an inch. Whether they're better than the Apeks is open to debate (I'd say yes), but for sure they outbreathe the Calypso.

 

[Ed Palma]

Would replacing the mouthpiece with a Comfo-bite be considered sacrilege? I thought I might be near the line attaching a USD Calypso to a Scubapro but keeping them apart with a vintage tee seems to have prevented them from fighting.
I never thought I would consider mouthpiece comfort to be near the top of my important list.

Sacrilege? When I got my 109s (converted to 156s) I swapped out the mouthpieces for the comfobites from my connies, and since I had some excess exhaust Ts from my MR-12s (ignore the custom label - they're 2nds to match my PRAMs with HPRs) I slapped those on my 156s after some modification.

(Oh, and for the missing knob in the 1st pic, you can see the G250 knob in the background of the 2nd pic)

 

[bj139]

A complex case this one. Here's a recap of your actions:

Here are some answers I can think of:

1. Your lever is dead, probability 70%. Let me quote DA Aquamaster, his post is well worth reading:
2. Your poppet is dead, probability 50%
3. Your spring is dead, probability 30%
4. EDIT: the orifice might be dead. I had 1 such case, tried to micro-mesh it, didn't work, mostly because I didn't hard enough, having acouple of spares to swap in.

The 109/156/G250 are machined to very close tolerance, and that swings both ways: you can swap parts at will and not worry about anything, or you modify one part, and the whole thing goes crazy. I once swapped poppets from 2 very different production runs (grey & white), and the cracking effort was identical, to maybe 10%, well within the resolution of a manometer, and I didn't touch the orifice.

And they are anything BUT tempermental: after a service, all of mine settle to about .8 in, and I detune them to an inch. Whether they're better than the Apeks is open to debate (I'd say yes), but for sure they outbreathe the Calypso.

The rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated.

I have done three dives with the R109. The last dive was after it had settled for about two weeks. I took it to 100 ft and it breathed fine. There were no more trickling bubbles when set to breathe easy. I think the seat has now formed a perfect impression of the orifice so it seals well. IMHO it now breathes better than the Calypso when set to just stop bubbling. At the risk of getting jumped on for giving my opinion I will say I still think the Apeks breathes slightly easier. This may have much to do with venturi assist combined with cracking pressure adjustment. The R109 gives me much less dry mouth after a one hour dive, certainly an advantage for the R109.