Thoughts on DIY Emergency Oxygen Kit?

[CuzzA]

I assume CuzzA knows of these resources at DAN.

Roger that. In the works.

Again, great discussion, lots of options. And IMO an important one for anyone hosting divers on their boat. In all honesty, much of the diving from my vessel will be hunting and so I think there is a higher possibility of something going sideways. I've always been of the "better to have and not need" type, so if anyone is on my boat, friends and family, they can be assured they have a chance if it hits the fan.

I'm curious why these demand masks are so expensive? Correct me if I'm wrong but it's really nothing more than a second stage that covers your nose, right? Hell, it doesn't even need to withstand external forces that could make it fail, like pressure at depth for instance.

 

[tbone1004]

regular demand valves aren't that much more than a high end second stage.
Dive Rite XT second stage is $150, standard demand valve is $205
Atomic M1 is $350, MTV-100 is $330

Hoses suck because they're $40 each vs $20 for normal regulators, but such is life.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Yeah, as always I should probably run my own math rather than trying to research on the web. Thanks!



This was my original plan, of course not without extensive study, training and equipment considerations. I believe there is an IWR course available. I fully intended on doing the IWR setup. AL80/100 with 100% O2, 30 ft. tether line, full face mask, IWR table and only with a support diver assisting the victim. Or possibly even a lower mix and deeper depth, say 50% @ 60 fsw. I know some of the crazy rig divers in the Gulf will without hesitation slap on another "air" tank and drop to 60' and slowly ascend and then slam a beer to thin their blood (I'm not advocating this, just what I've read)... After reading THIS I felt it is the most logical thing to do if you're, for example, 8 hours out from rescue in the Gulf of Mexico Middle Grounds and start feeling hurt. However, after a conversation with my instructor at the LDS he grilled me pretty hard on ever attempting it unless I was fully trained and even then suggested it was a bad idea so that's why I went with the medical surface supplied route. However, seeing the product you linked seems like a really good option, simply because it gives you "options" and obviously the AL80 holds more gas which would be beneficial even if on the surface.

Now you got my wheels spinning. For what it's worth my LDS can fill the medical tank.

If you are going to be diving in the Middle Grounds, you need to have your big boy pants on and that means to ignore the know-it-all instructor. You have a serious accident out there and you will be calling for helicopter evac. a boat ride is not gonna cut it.

I agree with most everyone that a scuba tank and regulator is more versatile, cheaper, easier to get filled, will be more robust in a corrosive marine environment AND you may very well want to hang the tank.

If somebody gets a shoulder hit 100 miles out, do you really want to call the USCG or might you try hanging it 20 feet and put the victim in the water with a safety diver to watch for a very unusual tox.

If the guy is paralyzed or just compromised mentally (or does not want to get in the water) then you make the call" and he lays down on the deck and uses the tank. The wait will hopefully be around 2 hrs. The tank may last that long if he sips it. If the guy can not breathe on his own after a dive and you are 100 miles out- well he is pretty much dead... so the medical mask really has very little, practical utility.

I would recommend you consider an old steel 72 bottle. It is very unlikely your shop is going to deliver oxygen at more than 2300 psi.. so the old steel will hold about what an aluminum will hold at the same pressure, and you can spray paint the crap out of it with home depot green paint and NOBODY will ever accidentally grab it and try to take it for a dive. The steel is more negative and will be a better tank to hang than an 80 which is too light and is more likely to get confused with a normal nitrox tank.

One configuration I like it to have a small bouy with 20 feet of line all ready and clipped to the tank. Somebody comes up complaining, and you just toss the bottle and they hang under the float - free of the boat and they will not get beat to hell from wave action. Having the line all rigged, makes it impossible for them to go too deep unless they unclip it.

In all honesty, if you do many multi-day grounds trips, you may be tossing the tank a lot, just because it is so nice to clear up a Co2 headache or a little ache, by hanging on the bottle for 5 minutes.

 

[rx7diver]

CuzzA,

Have you thought through getting an incapacitated diver from the water back into your boat? This just might be the most challenging part of any of this!

My dive rescue training addressed moving an incapacitated diver from the pool onto the pool deck. And from open water onto dry land. It didn't, however, address bringing him from open water onto a boat that's being pitched about in the open sea.

It's got to be as quick as possible, I would imagine, for the sooner emergency oxygen administration can be begun, the better!

Safe Diving,

rx7diver

 

[scagrotto]

680 liters of O2 or roughly 1.4 hrs at 8 lpm. Your body consumes around 1 lpm to 1.5 lpm normal.

Average adult tidal volume is about 0.5 liters, and uninjured people in decent shape breathe about 12 times per minute. They may only use +/- 1 lpm of O2, but they're going to inhale and exhale about 6 lpm of gas, and for a diving injury that gas should be 100% O2. Injured people may breathe more rapidly, though I suspect that's less likely with dive injuries than some other injuries. Either way, I'll figure that for planning purposes 8lpm is absolute minimum, and that's with a demand valve. A non-rebreather mask at 15 LPM (standard protocol in a lot of places, last I knew) means the tank lasts half as long.

Bag valve mask is the way to go with a properly trained person.

I know somebody (rock climber, backpacker and dry caver) who took an EMT course from an instructor who insisted that you could never be more than an hour from a hospital. I'll bet that instructor would agree with you completely. I'll also note that the people you're talking about don't have to pay for any of the O2 the patient doesn't actually breathe.

That said, the OP does need to be prepared for the possibility that the patient can't breathe for themselves, so a regular second stage won't cut it

Anywhere from 1-8 hrs depending on the depth you're looking for and conditions. So obviously rescue could take a while.

Not that it means that a diver will be in the hospital (or chamber) really quickly, but you've heard of the Coast Guard, right? I'll guess that they're already closer to a lot of the places you might go than you are, and they can get there and back a lot faster. Planning for the worst case is a great strategy, but it's not always practical. Having a generous reserve would be great, but I'd figure you need enough O2 to last until the helicopter arrives.

Edit: Got side tracked for a while, so didn't see that Dumpster Diver already made a couple of my points.

 

[CuzzA]

If you are going to be diving in the Middle Grounds, you need to have your big boy pants on and that means to ignore the know-it-all instructor. You have a serious accident out there and you will be calling for helicopter evac. a boat ride is not gonna cut it.

I agree with most everyone that a scuba tank and regulator is more versatile, cheaper, easier to get filled, will be more robust in a corrosive marine environment AND you may very well want to hang the tank.

If somebody gets a shoulder hit 100 miles out, do you really want to call the USCG or might you try hanging it 20 feet and put the victim in the water with a safety diver to watch for a very unusual tox.

If the guy is paralyzed or just compromised mentally (or does not want to get in the water) then you make the call" and he lays down on the deck and uses the tank. The wait will hopefully be around 2 hrs. The tank may last that long if he sips it. If the guy can not breathe on his own after a dive and you are 100 miles out- well he is pretty much dead... so the medical mask really has very little, practical utility.

I would recommend you consider an old steel 72 bottle. It is very unlikely your shop is going to deliver oxygen at more than 2300 psi.. so the old steel will hold about what an aluminum will hold at the same pressure, and you can spray paint the crap out of it with home depot green paint and NOBODY will ever accidentally grab it and try to take it for a dive. The steel is more negative and will be a better tank to hang than an 80 which is too light and is more likely to get confused with a normal nitrox tank.

One configuration I like it to have a small bouy with 20 feet of line all ready and clipped to the tank. Somebody comes up complaining, and you just toss the bottle and they hang under the float - free of the boat and they will not get beat to hell from wave action. Having the line all rigged, makes it impossible for them to go too deep unless they unclip it.

In all honesty, if you do many multi-day grounds trips, you may be tossing the tank a lot, just because it is so nice to clear up a Co2 headache or a little ache, by hanging on the bottle for 5 minutes.

I like this, DD. As I'm sure you know on this side of Florida we have to travel to get into clean deep water. Typically 25-30 miles just to find decent viz and you still may only be in 60 ft. depending on where you head out. If you want to catch "big" fish you gotta go much further. Not something I'm ready to do yet, but will once I have some more experience.

I did buy two teardrop buoys. One with 75 ft. of orange line to trail the boat and another with a weight to drop as a marker with different lengths of line depending on depth. So I could just add another 20 ft. line for hanging a tank to either buoy.

Good point about the 72's being negative and the potential fill issues of an 80.

Anybody want to buy some medical O2 tanks? Haha

CuzzA,

Have you thought through getting an incapacitated diver from the water back into your boat? This just might be the most challenging part of any of this!

My dive rescue training addressed moving an incapacitated diver from the pool onto the pool deck. And from open water onto dry land. It didn't, however, address bringing him from open water onto a boat that's being pitched about in the open sea.

It's got to be as quick as possible, I would imagine, for the sooner emergency oxygen administration can be begun, the better!

Safe Diving,

rx7diver

I can't say for sure. Ditch weights and inflate their BC, remove tank if necessary and man up I guess. If that were to happen I'd imagine there would be a good amount of adrenaline pumping and God forbid I would be doing it alone. I've made up my mind that if there's only two divers, myself included, I'm bringing a non-diving boat bitch.

 

[muddiver]

I didn't read the whole thread, so sorry if I repeat something.

If you have the O2 cylinders in hand and regulators, buy two DAN extended treatment kits. They should be less than a demand mask and will stretch your little cylinders for up to 8 hours.

Also, do not got to a med supply for O2. Find a scuba shop that supports tech divers or fills Nitrox by partial pressure to get your O2. No prescription for deco O2.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

An old, crappy MG video.. showing us throwing down an oxygen regulator on a 20 ft yellow hose. the tank was kept in the blue barrel on the platform. Much easier on our backs than hauling a bottle up after every dive, but we had a bigger boat, 50 tanks on board.. so not an issue.

one and a half minutes on the Radical - YouTube

[video=youtube;TeBiQ8BGdco]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeBiQ8BGdco[/video]

 

[pdhenry]

If somebody gets a shoulder hit 100 miles out, do you really want to call the USCG or might you try hanging it 20 feet and put the victim in the water with a safety diver to watch for a very unusual tox.

My Rescue Diver manual says you really don't want to stick someone in the water. It takes too long and the victim will probably develop hypothermia before he gets relief.

 

[CuzzA]

Not that it means that a diver will be in the hospital (or chamber) really quickly, but you've heard of the Coast Guard, right? I'll guess that they're already closer to a lot of the places you might go than you are, and they can get there and back a lot faster. Planning for the worst case is a great strategy, but it's not always practical. Having a generous reserve would be great, but I'd figure you need enough O2 to last until the helicopter arrives.

Edit: Got side tracked for a while, so didn't see that Dumpster Diver already made a couple of my points.

Is the chopper ready? Is it fulled up? Did it just break down? Is it somewhere else tending to another situation? Did the pilot screw up? In course of transfering information did someone screw up a number? I could go on and on.

Obviously in a serious situation they would get the call, but I don't want me or one of my guys sitting out there naked waiting with no life support. Not to mention of all the research I've done, time is of the essences. Actually, "right now" is of the essential when it comes to DCS, like as in within 5 minutes to hault any serious progression of bubble formation. So, we're not talking about diving in the Philippines, I get that, but we're not exactly close either on long trips. Having emergency support on the vessel could mean the difference between temporary paralysis or dead.

I guess the the worst analogy I can come up with is the spare tire. It's not the best tire, but if you got a flat in the middle of nowhere, I'd rather have that not so good tire rather than wait who knows how long for a tow truck.

Aside from all of that, I'm really just looking for a solid reliable setup that can meet the needs of a bad situation. Unless someone has a better idea I think 72's and that rescuean pod would just about cover it. I'm glad I started this thread, stopped me from wasting money and I've learned some new things. Thanks.