Trips when divers aren’t ready/equipped for them

[The Chairman]

wait... it's a liveaboard, diving deep wrecks, with doubles and no deco is allowed? Wow. That would be frustrating for me. Frank hosted us for a mixed bag of divers on deepish wrecks here in the Keys. Some did deco, some did not and we all had a great, great time. Frank's better half is the FAR better half.

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[Marie13]

Not a liveaboard. 3 days of morning diving. There’s only one liveaboard on the Great Lakes, around Isle Royale in Lake Superior. Quite pricey, too.

 

[electric_diver]

I dove the straights last year with a group that had mixed equipment. Two on doubles, two on large capacity singles, two on AL 80s.
We dove Barnum, Cedarville (stern), Young, Maitland, Sandusky x2.
The Young was the only one that would give small single tank divers an issue and that was due to current, not depth or cold. Our divers had lots of experience in the St. Lawrence river so current wasn't an issue.

The smaller tank divers just had shorter dives than the other people. They were ok with that. They were in last and out first.

Even the Eber Ward is accessible in the sport diving range (top deck 110 feet).

The question is: do you trust these divers to manage their gas supply in the expected conditions? If yes, let them come. If no then say no.

 

[johndiver999]

I’ve got a slighty sticky situation with the trip planned for next summer.

It’s for the Straits of Mackinac. The wrecks are deeper, one right at recreational limits, with the possibility of some current. Bottom temps around 40-45F. I’m the trip organizer and put down the deposit. You can’t book directly with the charter op and have to go through me.

Several folks have indicated an interest in the trip, but they either will not be ready or not willing to equip themselves properly for deeper dives. I’ll be doing deeper wrecks as well as deep dives (with very experienced buddies) on the deep side of a quarry that goes right down to 130ft before the trip. I’ll be doing it SM and others who are probables will either do SM or BM doubles. The probables either have tech aspirations or are already certified as such (several are full cave).

The questionables are good divers, but they think any dive can be done on an AL80 and refuse to carry a pony. I think it’s the influence of vacation divers even though they’ve done a bit of Great Lakes diving and a lot of cold quarry diving. We’ve tried both my AL30 and AL19 ponies with no success. A jacket BC with D rings not in the correct places doesn’t help. They also won’t do any deeper dives or other extra work before the trip (I know this because they’ve told me).

How would you address this with the questionables? I was very specific about the planned wrecks and their depths so they can’t say they were unaware of what the trip would entail.

If PADI says they can do a recreational dive with no deco and a single tank in less than 130 feet, then why are
You worrying about imposing additional constraints? If you are not a dive professional nor the captain, by what authority are you using to dictate dive plans that exceed those taught by the certification agency?

On the other hand, you could just state that the captain demands x y and z and if you want in on the trip, then you follow the captains rules.

I personally think redundancy is smart, but I wouldn’t try to impose that on someone else’s boat. Btw a pony can be clipped off to almost any bc with just a little forethought.

 

[Gareth J]

If PADI says they can do a recreational dive with no deco and a single tank in less than 130 feet, then why are
You worrying about imposing additional constraints? If you are not a dive professional nor the captain, by what authority are you using to dictate dive plans that exceed those taught by the certification agency?

If its one of my trips, I feel responsible for the team.

I don't care if PADI say its OK, they don't know the site or the conditions.
A single cylinder dive to 130 feet in the caribbean in ideal conditions is a lot different to a dive in poor conditions in cold or tidal waters. I've done 10m (30feet) dives that have been dicey on twinsets!
We have minimal qualifications, minimal experience and minimal equipment requirements on all of our trips. Some for new divers, some which are much more kit and experienced based. That is always set out on the trip details - before people sign up.

On the other hand, you could just state that the captain demands x y and z and if you want in on the trip, then you follow the captains rules.

I personally think redundancy is smart, but I wouldn’t try to impose that on someone else’s boat. Btw a pony can be clipped off to almost any bc with just a little forethought.

 

[scubadada]

wait... it's a liveaboard, diving deep wrecks, with doubles and no deco is allowed? Wow. That would be frustrating for me. Frank hosted us for a mixed bag of divers on deepish wrecks here in the Keys. Some did deco, some did not and we all had a great, great time. Frank's better half is the FAR better half.

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Thanks Pete, good memories. My son and I were 2 of the 4 single tank divers on the Spree. We had a blast diving the Spiegel Grove, Duane, Eagle, Thunderbolt, Adolphus Busch and the Vandenberg. We were prepared to dive AL80s but Frank was nice enough to give us HP100s. The dives were between 96 and 121 feet and nearly all were limited by NDL. We got in 11 1/4 hours of bottom time in the 15 dives in 4 days.

Sound like Marie's trip could work out fine as long as the single tank divers appropriately manage their gas and NDL. Main differences are the cold water and drysuits.

 

[Marie13]

Sound like Marie's trip could work out fine as long as the single tank divers appropriately manage their gas and NDL. Main differences are the cold water and drysuits.

What drysuit? . I’ll be diving the Straits wet unless I lose an additional 30-40 lbs (working hard on that) AND have the funds to replace my drysuit (current one too big after some weight loss). Bottom temps are very similar to what I’ll be encountering in northern Lake Huron (Alpena) in 10 days.

Captain got back to me. Redundancy is not required, but is strongly encouraged.

A single AL80 in the tropics is a heck of a lot different than in the Great Lakes.

 

[Marie13]

Btw a pony can be clipped off to almost any bc with just a little forethought.

The problem is divers REFUSING to consider redundancy, even with loaned gear.

Oh, and I don’t give a flying fig what PADI says - what is appropriate for the tropics does not apply on the Great Lakes.

 

[Compressor]

@Marie13: I think this is going to be a problem. It seems that only you (Marie13) and some of your buddies know their limitations. I agree with @rhwestfall that there has to be some Capt. rules that need to be considered and enforced.

If the divers are not equipped physically to take care of themselves, it would be a big headache for me. I would have trouble concentrating on being safe myself. Mentally they seem to not be concerned which is just as serious a problem as physical fitness.

 

[scubadada]

What drysuit? . I’ll be diving the Straits wet unless I lose an additional 30-40 lbs (working hard on that) AND have the funds to replace my drysuit (current one too big after some weight loss). Bottom temps are very similar to what I’ll be encountering in northern Lake Huron (Alpena) in 10 days.

Captain got back to me. Redundancy is not required, but is strongly encouraged.

A single AL80 in the tropics is a heck of a lot different than in the Great Lakes.

I've only dived wet to 47 degrees, I wouldn't know.